the Obama-pacolypse giddyup's in on 10% unemployment

[Boffo]

LOL  thanks Val
"A sequence of events created the economic crises: ill-advised deregulation of the banking sector "    -v

allowing    ---stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay?  and a new phrase was coined for public consumption, "toxic assets", which like "jumbo shrimp"

"low interest rates"  ---allowing  ----stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay?  AMD no payments for a year!  ippykayay

"imaginative and aggressive marketing of all kinds of credit,  --- forcing stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay....

"the collapse of the banking system"  -v
caused by stupid people spending money they didn't have and couldn't repay  aka "toxic assets"

why is it that your pompous bloviation keeps coming back to my simple question?

I'm patiently waiting for you to direct me to an example of Keynesian success.

and the amount of deficit your progressive "Keynesians" have saddled us with.

arms folded, toe tapping

[ivanm]

LOL  thanks Val
"A sequence of events created the economic crises: ill-advised deregulation of the banking sector "    -v

allowing    ---stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay?  and a new phrase was coined for public consumption, "toxic assets", which like "jumbo shrimp"

"low interest rates"  ---allowing  ----stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay?  AMD no payments for a year!  ippykayay

"imaginative and aggressive marketing of all kinds of credit,  --- forcing stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay....

"the collapse of the banking system"  -v
caused by stupid people spending money they didn't have and couldn't repay  aka "toxic assets"

why is it that your pompous bloviation keeps coming back to my simple question?

I'm patiently waiting for you to direct me to an example of Keynesian success.

and the amount of deficit your progressive "Keynesians" have saddled us with.

arms folded, toe tapping

Consumption is important to a viable economy but so is savings and investment into productive assets.  There needs to be more of a balance between consumption and these basic things that are used to provide us with the articles we consume. 
When production goes off shore, which has been the case with many consumables, then there is less need to invest in the plants and equipment needed to make that cheap stuff we import by the boat convoy load. 

We see unemployment figures on the order of 9 to 10% and wring our hands in agony.  No kidding, when we drove the production off shore that created what I call a systemic unemployment.  In other words, those jobs would come in handy now and if we were making more of our consumables then there would be more jobs for the consumers but we lost them because of our system of production and distribution. 

It would be like depending on imports of our food supply because the enviro wackos had succeeded in wrecking our  marvelous and highly productive food production system.  A lot of farm workers and processors would be out of work.  Oh yeah, the market and Wally's would still have foodstuffs on their shelves so those workers would still have jobs, but the producers would be out of luck.

Another systemic problem is our NIMBY attitude towards energy production, particularly petroleum and natural gas.  Well meaning activists have crippled domestic exploration and production but don't object to the pollution  of the ME oil patches.
It is the old out of sigh out of mind syndrome. 

Would someone tell  me the rationale the Democrats employ when they thwart legislation that is intended to promote domestic production of crude oil, natural gas, and hydroelectric dam sites? 

[Boffo]

Hi Ivan

as far as offshore, and I include outsourcing I doubt that we could ever recover or compete with Asian (or other) slave labor but making Right to Work a national policy would be a good start. Union optional firms should also be allowed to bid fairly on all levels of government business, jobs and contracts.

I'm no protectionist, but would love to see a President/policy maker stand up to foreign interests and governments and forcefully demand a fair shake...I'm sure that any ex steelworker would agree, if you're familiar with the history that ex-industry.

I guess the notion of 30 more nuclear plants, the cleanest and safest source of reliable energy available is off the table for the next 3 and a half years..........so we can charge the batterys of our little deathtrap shitbox cars with electricity made from coal of foreign oil.
As Obama literally bows down like a servant to Saudi's the idea of giving them $100 a barrel seem inevitable, while the idea of charging them $100 for a bushel of grain appears impossible.

hey, Ivan, Vel is hiding the link to Keynesian Success Stories from me, you got one?
If not, Socialist Utopias would do.  thanks

[lucy]

We need to get our grain supply up to snuff, then....at least to protect our own citizens....You can survive in this world without oil. You cannot survive without food.

[ivanm]

We need to get our grain supply up to snuff, then....at least to protect our own citizens....You can survive in this world without oil. You cannot survive without food.

We usually produce a huqe surplus each year, which is exported for the most part.  Or maybe you are speaking of the safety of our grain?  I haven't heard that there are any problems with that.  Let me find some stats on grain production from the Statistical Abstract of the US.

Table 818 should give you a basic idea of the tremendous amount of surplus grains we export each year. Wouldn't it be nice if we could produce more fresh fruit and veggies?   I advocated ways of doing that in my book but it would cover only a minute portion of the total demand.

[ivanm]

Hi Ivan

as far as offshore, and I include outsourcing I doubt that we could ever recover or compete with Asian (or other) slave labor but making Right to Work a national policy would be a good start. Union optional firms should also be allowed to bid fairly on all levels of government business, jobs and contracts.

I'm no protectionist, but would love to see a President/policy maker stand up to foreign interests and governments and forcefully demand a fair shake...I'm sure that any ex steelworker would agree, if you're familiar with the history that ex-industry.

I guess the notion of 30 more nuclear plants, the cleanest and safest source of reliable energy available is off the table for the next 3 and a half years..........so we can charge the batterys of our little deathtrap shitbox cars with electricity made from coal of foreign oil.
As Obama literally bows down like a servant to Saudi's the idea of giving them $100 a barrel seem inevitable, while the idea of charging them $100 for a bushel of grain appears impossible.

hey, Ivan, Vel is hiding the link to Keynesian Success Stories from me, you got one?
If not, Socialist Utopias would do.  thanks

I certainly agree on our not being able to compete with cheap foreign labor.  As their standard of living rises and they demand higher wages then maybe we will have a chance.

I think that as long as we are heavily indebted to foreign countries and foreign investors we are over the barrel when it comes to standing up to them.

I note your closing comments.   Hopefully you can keep him in line because I have found it rather futile to even try.  This place has been a festering boil since Obama was elected and it gets old.  

You may be right on the safety of nuclear plants but I am leery of them, particularly from the security aspect.  Maybe Observer can offer some input on power plant security.   A possible downside to going strong on nuclear plants is the availability of fuel.  I assume that much of what we use now is imported.  And the disposal of the spent fuel rods or whatever they are called concerns me.  

I don't to mean hijack this thread with my ramblings on alternate energy but I think that a change of mindset is needed before we can become self sufficient in vehicle fuels and energy for housing and the like.  It is the old bit that if you cannot go thru an obstacle then you go around it.  Ike was pretty good at that with his European strategy during WW II.  If you like we could kick around some ideas in the appropriate sub forum. That is a hobby of mine, ginning up pragmatic solutions to our economic problems.  It beats the hell out of arguing with brick walls about social issues.

[Velleity]

"imaginative and aggressive marketing of all kinds of credit,  --- forcing stupid people to spend money they didn't have and couldn't repay....

Are you so sure it was so stupid for these people? Use your brain in the way it was designed to be used. If you had no assets and modest income of, say, $30,000 per year, and someone offered you a $300,000 house to live in (and possibly profit from, assuming the rate of appreciation at the time), what would you do?

Keep in mind that it takes at least 6 months for them get you out.

[lucy]

We usually produce a huqe surplus each year, which is exported for the most part.  Or maybe you are speaking of the safety of our grain?  I haven't heard that there are any problems with that.  Let me find some stats on grain production from the Statistical Abstract of the US.

Table 818 should give you a basic idea of the tremendous amount of surplus grains we export each year. Wouldn't it be nice if we could produce more fresh fruit and veggies?   I advocated ways of doing that in my book but it would cover only a minute portion of the total demand.

Thanks. I have read that we are greatly undersupplied because of weather conditions and such...I'll try to find a link.

Ivan, I do appreciate your kind and very sensible way of dealing with issues. Being raised on a farm was a good thing, imo. Reading about your parents made me think about those who really produce something at great effort and those who do not...

Many blessings.

[Boffo]

"Are you so sure it was so stupid for these people? " -v

yes, I am

"If you had no assets and modest income of, say, $30,000 per year, and someone offered you a $300,000 house to live in (and possibly profit from, assuming the rate of appreciation at the time), what would you do?" -v

I'd say, thank you slimeball criminal con artist trying to cheat their company and their companies investors so's you can make a cheezy commission, but NO I can't afford it.  and I don't need a knock off Rolex either

"Keep in mind that it takes at least 6 months for them get you out." -v

Probably longer if I hired a sleazebag lawyer to jerk the system around, and paint me as the victim but I like to think further out than that, and it would take forever to ease my conscience.

Did you really post that Vel?  or did some hacker sneak in, steal your identity and toss that up there just to make you look stupid and corrupt ?

I rarely do screen shots these days, but I'll do this one for evidence in case they sneak back in and try to cover their tracks.

[Velleity]

"Are you so sure it was so stupid for these people? " -v

yes, I am

"If you had no assets and modest income of, say, $30,000 per year, and someone offered you a $300,000 house to live in (and possibly profit from, assuming the rate of appreciation at the time), what would you do?" -v

I'd say, thank you slimeball criminal con artist trying to cheat their company and their companies investors so's you can make a cheezy commission, but NO I can't afford it.  and I don't need a knock off Rolex either

"Keep in mind that it takes at least 6 months for them get you out." -v

Probably longer if I hired a sleazebag lawyer to jerk the system around, and paint me as the victim but I like to think further out than that, and it would take forever to ease my conscience.

Did you really post that Vel?  or did some hacker sneak in, steal your identity and toss that up there just to make you look stupid and corrupt ?

I rarely do screen shots these days, but I'll do this one for evidence in case they sneak back in and try to cover their tracks.

I didn't make this up Boffo. It's the way it works.

I don't conduct my life that way but there are plenty of people who do, and plenty more who do much worse. If you want to blame it all on me then go for it.

Oy.

[Velleity]

Keep in mind here Boffo, you set the parameter as "stupid." You said nothing about morality.

Obviously what I am suggesting is not far from stealing. It might be overly speculative though. I mean people were flipping houses for a profit and you had all kinds of gurus telling people how to get rich doing it in those infomercials.

Ultimately though I'm not sure why you would have so much sympathy for these lenders. They are at least as culpable and I don't think you could call them stupid. They're the ones who really made out here and it was with other people's money.

And who is ultimately paying for all of this? It isn't the people at the top.

[Boffo]

"I don't conduct my life that way" -v

I believe that, I was ridiculing your analogy

there is no doubt in my mind that there were and are some "6 month" thinkers out there

and wannabee "flippers" who bought some guy's scam video of massive riches via the easy money tree of no money down

but the bulk of the foreclosure problem is stupid people, getting coerced by greedy commission driven con men into impossible debt.
If a person can't see that a mortgage payment is more or near what they earn, they are "STUPID"

When I was looking for my first house, my dad told me  "one weeks clear pay" is what your monthly mortgage payment should be, any more and you are "stupid"

lo and behold, the banker told me the same thing,..... and that stupid people don't get loans from him cuz he ain't a repo man.

greedy lender policy may have changed, but the formula is carved in stone solid ...25%

[Velleity]

"I don't conduct my life that way" -v

I believe that, I was ridiculing your analogy

there is no doubt in my mind that there were and are some "6 month" thinkers out there

and wannabee "flippers" who bought some guy's scam video of massive riches via the easy money tree of no money down

but the bulk of the foreclosure problem is stupid people, getting coerced by greedy commission driven con men into impossible debt.
If a person can't see that a mortgage payment is more or near what they earn, they are "STUPID"

When I was looking for my first house, my dad told me  "one weeks clear pay" is what your monthly mortgage payment should be, any more and you are "stupid"

lo and behold, the banker told me the same thing,..... and that stupid people don't get loans from him cuz he ain't a repo man.

greedy lender policy may have changed, but the formula is carved in stone solid ...25%

That was before the advent of securitized mortgages. Not only was your banker not a repo man, he did not want to run afoul with the bank examiner.

Remember Uncle Billy?

You can than Republicans Gramm, Leach, and Bliley for undoing all of that. Remember, every time you hear a bell an angel gets his wings!

[ivanm]

Are you so sure it was so stupid for these people? Use your brain in the way it was designed to be used. If you had no assets and modest income of, say, $30,000 per year, and someone offered you a $300,000 house to live in (and possibly profit from, assuming the rate of appreciation at the time), what would you do?

Keep in mind that it takes at least 6 months for them get you out.

How could someone with a 30k a year income make payments on a 300,000 mortgage?  And how about the down payment?  The people that talked these folks into such a foolish venture need to be hung out to dry.

[Case_Closed]

Has a Keynesian "Success Story" been disclosed yet?