Traditional Catholics and the defeat of fascism – a pictorial

[Mornac]

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Below are photos of some of the thousands of traditional Catholics who were among the allied forces that fought against fascism during WWII. The men in these photos are attending traditional rite Masses offered on battle fields. For some it was their last Mass. The forces went on to defeat fascism in Europe along with its insidious form of anti-semitism which resulted in the extermination of untold numbers of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and others persecuted for their religious affiliation.




Among those who died in concentration camps was heroic French Resistance fighter, René Lefebvre whose son, Marcel, was ordained a Roman Catholic priest and rose through the hierarchy eventually becoming the first Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Dakar in French Africa. Levfebvre was also appointed Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers, a position he held until 1968. The following year he founded a seminary at Econe in Switzerland with the permission of the local bishop. In 1970 the bishop of the diocese established a society of priests (SSPX) under the supervision of Archbishop Lefebvre. The society preserved the ancient traditional rite of the Roman Catholic Church which had just been forcefully out-popularized by the Novus Ordo rite which was introduced that year. The Society went on to establish missions throughout the world which were staffed with SSPX priests. The SSPX has been influential in preserving the regular rite of the Roman Catholic Church and they were instrumental in the promulgation of a papal letter a few years ago which informed ignorant Catholic prelates that the traditional Roman Rite was never abrogated, the whacky Novus ordo atrocity notwithstanding. SSPX theologians were invited to Rome in recent months to enlighten the Curia about the doctrinal flaws of the Second Vatican Council. As a result of these meetings, the Vatican presented the SSPX this past week, with a preamble casting doubt on some of the pronunciations made by the Second Vatican Council. This has been viewed as a watershed moment in Catholic history and will no doubt have a profound affect an all of those who have suffered as a result of the double speak employed by partisans of Vatican II. One can only wonder if the grace of foresight imposed on Archbishop Lefebvre was a result of his father’s martyrdom in the cause of freedom from fascism.
 
*Note that of the tens of thousands of Roman Catholics who fought to defeat fascism during WW II, one hundred percent of them  practiced the traditional rite. There was not even one who practiced the Novus ordo rite.

[ivanm]

"Below are photos of some of the thousands of traditional Catholics who were among the allied forces that fought against fascism during WWII. The men in these photos are attending traditional rite Masses offered on battle fields. For some it was their last Mass. The forces went on to defeat fascism in Europe along with its insidious form of anti-semitism which resulted in the extermination of untold numbers of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and others persecuted for their religious affiliation. "

Are you trying to imply that fascism is inherently anti-semitic, homophobic, xenophobic and anti religious?  It is not unusual for an authoritarian form opf government to discourage religious freedom. 

Do you really know what the term fascist means?  It beats the hell out of the socialism that erupted in France after the revolution, if that is any clue.

I think you are trolling again.

[Mornac]

Are you trying to imply that fascism is inherently anti-semitic, homophobic, xenophobic and anti religious?

--No, I’m implying that the fascism that rose in Europe in the earlier half of the 20th century had those elements.

It is not unusual for an authoritarian form opf government to discourage religious freedom.

--I know.

Do you really know what the term fascist means?

--Yes.

It beats the hell out of the socialism that erupted in France after the revolution, if that is any clue.

--I’m no fan of the revolution in France.

I think you are trolling again.

--I’m never quite sure what you mean by that. I only come here for conversation. Anyone is free to have one with me or not. You should know by now that I don’t run away from questions, so what you mean by “trolling” is a beyond me.

[ivanm]

Were there non-traditional Catholics back then, and were non-traditional Catholics, what the hell that means, fighting and dying in WW II?

What you post is your business, but you must have a persecution complex.  Are the traditional Catholics such misfits that they have become victims of persecution?  If they want to be a martyr to some sort of religious cause then they can expect to bear the pain of doing so.

[Mornac]

Were there non-traditional Catholics back then, and were non-traditional Catholics, what the hell that means, fighting and dying in WW II?

--There were Eastern rite Catholics who practiced a rite other than the traditional Roman rite and yes, they were fighting and dying in WWII.

What you post is your business, but you must have a persecution complex.

--I’m not sure what that is, but I’m pretty sure I don’t have one.

Are the traditional Catholics such misfits that they have become victims of persecution?

--Misfit is in the eye of the beholder but, yes they have become victims of persecution (again!).

If they want to be a martyr to some sort of religious cause then they can expect to bear the pain of doing so.

--They don’t want to be martyrs but being prepared to do so comes with the territory.

[johnhp]

You had a chance to stand up against antisemitism when the Williamson story broke a couple of years ago on Ignis ardens yet you let the anti-semitic posts of your fellow traditionalists pass without comment.

In point of fact you posted an article of Fellay's refusal to condemn Williamson.

http://goo.gl/SNIhM


France 2 recently aired a documentary on the far right in Bordeaux.  Among those who appeared in undercover taping were students at aschool run by the Institut du Bon Pasteur.  Dies Irae, the far right political group in Bordeaux, attracts some of the older teens from the Institutes school.  Many of these teens were caught on tape discussing preparing for a war to be waged against Muslims, antisemitic statements, condemnations of Vatican II, etc.

Why is it whenever we see these "traditionalist" Catholics, we uncover fascists?  When Mornac published a film of traditionalists being arrested by French police for refusing a lawful order to vacate a public square, right along with the traditionalists were fascists.

When nazi collaborator Paul Touvier died the head of the Institut du Bon Pasteur celebrated his funeral.  That was, of course when Laguérie (head of the IBP) was still in the SSPX.  Oh, and when Touvier was found by the authorities he was hiding out in the SSPX's Nice priory.  During his trial an SSPX priest sat at the defense table with him.

Dieudonné M'bala M'bala, far right "comedian" and Holocaust denier had his third kid baptized by Laguérie and the godfather was?  Anyone?  Jean Marie Le Pen.


Why do "traditionalist" Catholics love fascism?


And let's not forget one of the pillars of traditionalist Catholicism, one of its LEADERS, a criminal convicted in German court...

Bishop Richard Williamson - Gas Chambers, Anti-Semitism and the Truth

[johnhp]

So what would those fellows fighting against fascism in Europe say when the Traditionalist Catholic movement (which began WELL AFTER the war) sucked up to fascists?

[Mornac]

Oh...and we fought the commies too:

Mass Held In War, Jeep As Altar

9/29/1952-Korea: Chaplain Costanzo Antonellis of Brooklyn, NY, holds mass for soldiers of the 3rd battalion, 65th regiment of Puerto Rican troops, using an altar improvised on a Jeep hood for the front-line services. It was the last mass for many of these soldiers, who suffered casualties in the re-taking of Kelly Hill, shortly after the religious observance.

[johnhp]

And again silence on current antisemitism and fascism.

[ivanm]

So what would those fellows fighting against fascism in Europe say when the Traditionalist Catholic movement (which began WELL AFTER the war) sucked up to fascists?

That question came to mind. When did this traditionalist movement come to be?  Or was every Catholic a traditionalist until the schism happened?
I assume the traditionalist movement is the one that Mornac associates with.

[johnhp]

That question came to mind. When did this traditionalist movement come to be?  Or was every Catholic a traditionalist until the schism happened?
I assume the traditionalist movement is the one that Mornac associates with.

The term "Traditionalist" is a fabrication applied to a category of alleged Catholics who prefer the way the church was before the last Council (Vatican II).  The largest contingent was founded in 1970 by Marcel Lefebvre who supported the neo-fascists in France, whose organization his nazi war criminal (mentioned in a post above), the organization he ran has pilgrimages to the tomb of the criminal Petain and they have been allied with neo-fascist organizations like the Front national.  Richard Williamson, a bishop in the movement (video above) is a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier.

And let's be clear, this movement represents at most around a million of the more than 1 billion Catholics, so a vast minority.


And there is no such thing as a traditionalist Catholic.  A person is either a Catholic or not.

[ivanm]

The term "Traditionalist" is a fabrication applied to a category of alleged Catholics who prefer the way the church was before the last Council (Vatican II).  The largest contingent was founded in 1970 by Marcel Lefebvre who supported the neo-fascists in France, whose organization his nazi war criminal (mentioned in a post above), the organization he ran has pilgrimages to the tomb of the criminal Petain and they have been allied with neo-fascist organizations like the Front national.  Richard Williamson, a bishop in the movement (video above) is a virulent antisemite and holocaust denier.

And let's be clear, this movement represents at most around a million of the more than 1 billion Catholics, so a vast minority.


And there is no such thing as a traditionalist Catholic.  A person is either a Catholic or not.

I suspected what you have said in the last line of your post.  I sense that Mornac is very closed minded about his views, but I haven't seen him say anything that suggests he supports the visciousness of a fascist country ran amok like Nazi Germany was.

Modern Europe has some countries that look fascist to me, and France and Germany comes to mind. Is it part of their heritage or is it a reaction to the ever present communist threat, I don't know?

Fascism is a rather complex political philosophy, for lack of a better term, and was typically headed up by an autocrat like Hitler or Mussolini back in the WW II era.  It seems to be an intense nationalism that has gone to the extremes. If one cares to apply  the definition loosely one could say that the US foreign policy looks fascist, but  socially the country has drifted in the opposite direction of anarchy and divisiveness.  We are a strange bunch, this old mixing pot.

[johnhp]

I suspected what you have said in the last line of your post.  I sense that Mornac is very closed minded about his views, but I haven't seen him say anything that suggests he supports the visciousness of a fascist country ran amok like Nazi Germany was.

He is the worst kind of person possible outside of the overt fascist: he is silent on these matters, matters that reach to the heart of this movement itself.  It occurs within the leadership of this movement, it occurs among supporters of this movement and one can find it easily on their websites.  i posted one link to a thread of a traditionalist message bolard in which some very nasty antisemitic comments were made and Mornac participated on that thread and let the comments go without comment.  Silence does not mean approval it means refusal to stand up to what is evil.

Modern Europe has some countries that look fascist to me, and France and Germany comes to mind. Is it part of their heritage or is it a reaction to the ever present communist threat, I don't know?

i do not know what you mean by fascist here.  Certainly France recently targeted a minority for deportation, the Roma, but i am not sure that from an exact understanding you could say the nation as a whole is fascist.  i would want to hear more about what you are thinking here.

Fascism is a rather complex political philosophy, for lack of a better term, and was typically headed up by an autocrat like Hitler or Mussolini back in the WW II era.  It seems to be an intense nationalism that has gone to the extremes. If one cares to apply  the definition loosely one could say that the US foreign policy looks fascist, but  socially the country has drifted in the opposite direction of anarchy and divisiveness.  We are a strange bunch, this old mixing pot.

i think you are looking at fascism superficially.  You need also to look at the relationship between economy and state, for instance.  Look at the concentration camps, many of them were run by private enterprise in concert with the state.  While i do not think the US is fascist, i do believe we are a corporatist nation and becoming moreso.

[ivanm]

He is the worst kind of person possible outside of the overt fascist: he is silent on these matters, matters that reach to the heart of this movement itself.  It occurs within the leadership of this movement, it occurs among supporters of this movement and one can find it easily on their websites.  i posted one link to a thread of a traditionalist message bolard in which some very nasty antisemitic comments were made and Mornac participated on that thread and let the comments go without comment.  Silence does not mean approval it means refusal to stand up to what is evil.



i do not know what you mean by fascist here.  Certainly France recently targeted a minority for deportation, the Roma, but i am not sure that from an exact understanding you could say the nation as a whole is fascist.  i would want to hear more about what you are thinking here.


i think you are looking at fascism superficially.  You need also to look at the relationship between economy and state, for instance.  Look at the concentration camps, many of them were run by private enterprise in concert with the state.  While i do not think the US is fascist, i do believe we are a corporatist nation and becoming moreso.

I was looking at it on a macro scale.  History books tell us the details of it.  All these bizarre policies were used to support the super state they envisioned. Fascism is like communism in that full allegiance to the state is required of the subects.  I am not sure how the xenophobia dovetails into the fascist scheme.  Mabye it results from thinking the
state is best served by a homongenous populace?

[johnhp]

I was looking at it on a macro scale.  History books tell us the details of it.  All these bizarre policies were used to support the super state they envisioned. Fascism is like communism in that full allegiance to the state is required of the subects.  I am not sure how the xenophobia dovetails into the fascist scheme.  Mabye it results from thinking the
state is best served by a homongenous populace?

Well, no.  It is not the state, it is the Corporate State, the merger of state and corporate power.  Xenophobia in naziism, as a form of fascism, was a manifestation of nationalism.  It organized the Germans as the alleged aryan race supplants the chosen people.  The chosen people must die, in nazi theology, in order for the so-called master race to live.