Dreams of Neo-cons

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Remember when the people who were cheerleading the Iraq invasion were telling us the ME was going to turn democratic once  a new pro-Western government was established in Iraq?

Well, how's that going?   

[SpaceCadet]

Remember when the people who were cheerleading the Iraq invasion were telling us the ME was going to turn democratic once  a new pro-Western government was established in Iraq?

Well, how's that going?   

Well, it may be a start at a better future a looong way down the road, even though it's not so great yet.  But I don't think it worked out the way the neo-cons of the PNAC envisioned.

[Observer]

It certainly shows more promise than that whole "Hope and Change" thing.

[Velleity]

It certainly shows more promise than that whole "Hope and Change" thing.

Do you think WE, THE PEOPLE have forgotten how well your alternative "worked".

Keep in mind, as much of one as you actually have, that Republicans now "enjoy" their lowest approval ratings ever.

[Velleity]

Oh, and you shouldn't fret too much Obs. Your precious mercenaries are still out there making tons and tons of dough:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/22/karzai-us-taxpayerfunded-_n_690385.html

Ain't "limited government" grand?

[johnhp]

i really think that when they say democratization they really mean globalization.  There is a major difference there.

[Velleity]

i really think that when they say democratization they really mean globalization.  There is a major difference there.

I think they mean corporatism. They're overly concerned about tyranny from the government, and under concerned about tyranny from corporations.

The record of corporate tyranny is appalling, yet they do the old "These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along. Move along." routine when it comes to corporate tyranny.

For Obs you can trace this back to his objectivism. He is a true believer, and he is totally a priori in terms of his ideology. He has drunk the Kool Aid and no amount of empirical evidence can convince him that it's tainted. If God, Herself, appeared before him and commanded him to look objectively at the evidence, he would not do it.

I have asked him point blank, on several occasions. At least he's honest. He admits that nothing would convince him that his ideology is incorrect. No amount of suffering or decline at the hands of his ideology would convince him to rethink any of it.

Now, is that because he is incapable of real thought and objective analysis, or is it because he is just so convinced of the absolute truth? I'm pretty sure it's the former.

The contrast with Mornac is certainly interesting. Have you looked at how carefully they interact, when they interact? You would think that their narrow ideologies would be totally incompatible.

[johnhp]

I think they mean corporatism. They're overly concerned about tyranny from the government, and under concerned about tyranny from corporations.

The record of corporate tyranny is appalling, yet they do the old "These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along. Move along." routine when it comes to corporate tyranny.

For Obs you can trace this back to his objectivism. He is a true believer, and he is totally a priori in terms of his ideology. He has drunk the Kool Aid and no amount of empirical evidence can convince him that it's tainted. If God, Herself, appeared before him and commanded him to look objectively at the evidence, he would not do it.

I have asked him point blank, on several occasions. At least he's honest. He admits that nothing would convince him that his ideology is incorrect. No amount of suffering or decline at the hands of his ideology would convince him to rethink any of it.

Now, is that because he is incapable of real thought and objective analysis, or is it because he is just so convinced of the absolute truth? I'm pretty sure it's the former.

The contrast with Mornac is certainly interesting. Have you looked at how carefully they interact, when they interact? You would think that their narrow ideologies would be totally incompatible.

i approach globalization as corporatism on a world scale.


Right wingers are unconcerned about the specifics of their ideologies that differentiate them.  They are united in their general ressentiment (which Scheler's translator translates as rancor) at humanity. 

[ivanm]

Remember when the people who were cheerleading the Iraq invasion were telling us the ME was going to turn democratic once  a new pro-Western government was established in Iraq?

Well, how's that going?   

Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have a representative type of democracy.  Granted, the Islamic extremists are giving those governments a hard time of it, but at least people now have the right to vote.

People in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait also have the right to vote although Islamic law gets in the way of having a western type of democracy with secular laws.

Had it not been for the US I doubt that Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would have a democracy at all.  Remember Gulf I anyone, under Bush Sr.?

It is one thing to depose and to execute despotic rulers like Saddam Hussein but quite another to unlock the hold that the Islamic law has on these people.  I think the best any admin. can do is to keep these countries from falling to another dictator and to keep them from aggressing on others.  At present Iran seems to be the most bellicose of the ME countries.

[Velleity]

Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have a representative type of democracy.  Granted, the Islamic extremists are giving those governments a hard time of it, but at least people now have the right to vote.

People in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait also have the right to vote although Islamic law gets in the way of having a western type of democracy with secular laws.

Had it not been for the US I doubt that Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would have a democracy at all.  Remember Gulf I anyone, under Bush Sr.?

It is one thing to depose and to execute despotic rulers like Saddam Hussein but quite another to unlock the hold that the Islamic law has on these people.  I think the best any admin. can do is to keep these countries from falling to another dictator and to keep them from aggressing on others.  At present Iran seems to be the most bellicose of the ME countries.

There are 1.2 billion Muslims. I think you're focusing too much on the radicals.

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is Arab culture. If you actually studied pre WWI history you would know how the great powers messed these people up. There is nothing peculiar about Arabs, but there is something peculiar about their history and it is because of some huge mistakes made by people like Winston Churchill.

[IM2]

All we did was destabilize this region a little more. We also created more hate for America. That's about all this excersize produced. These guys have been telling the west to leave them alone for 80-90 years and we don't listen because we know better than they do what they need.

No, this is not going to create a beter future down the road, up the road or on the road. Not for them, and certainly not for us, our kids, or grandkids. What this has produced is a kid growing up who is going to plan an event so dramatic that happens on these shores that he will make Bin Ladens 9-11 look like a christmas holiday.

What about we try something new? LEAVE THOSE GUYS OVER THERE ALONE!

[Velleity]

All we did was destabilize this region a little more. We also created more hate for America. That's about all this excersize produced. These guys have been telling the west to leave them alone for 80-90 years and we don't listen because we know better than they do what they need.

No, this is not going to create a beter future down the road, up the road or on the road. Not for them, and certainly not for us, our kids, or grandkids. What this has produced is a kid growing up who is going to plan an event so dramatic that happens on these shores that he will make Bin Ladens 9-11 look like a christmas holiday.

What about we try something new? LEAVE THOSE GUYS OVER THERE ALONE!

I don't know that this is true IM. "These guys" is a broad brush too.

[IM2]

Vel,

We have to disagree on this one. I just say give it time and watch what happens.  We have been asked to leave the people of this region alone for quite some time. And because we cannot, we are going to get fucked up real bad some day.

I'm not talking about Israel. They want us there so they can do what they do and get away with it. But what we need to do is leave all of them alone. That will stop some things from happening.

[ivanm]

There are 1.2 billion Muslims. I think you're focusing too much on the radicals.

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is Arab culture. If you actually studied pre WWI history you would know how the great powers messed these people up. There is nothing peculiar about Arabs, but there is something peculiar about their history and it is because of some huge mistakes made by people like Winston Churchill.

Islamic creed has a powerful influence on Arabic culture just as Judaic creed has a powerful effect on Jewish culture.  Christians and Jews alike have been fighting the Islamic people since long before WW I. The ancient crusades were very much against Islamic people.

Are you suggesting that Arabs by nature like to blow up buildings and like to harm or kill westerners?  What is the basis for this hatred?  I think it goes beyond their treatment in WW I.

[IM2]

Are you suggesting that Arabs by nature like to blow up buildings and like to harm or kill westerners?  What is the basis for this hatred?  I think it goes beyond their treatment in WW I.

The hate of the west stems from our use of assassination to kill muslim leaders, our use of destablization techniques to remove demcoratically elected Muslim leaders who wanted to control their own natural resources, and the hiring of men such as Saddam Hussein to murder leaders  we did not want in power. The simplistic notion of they just hate us because we are free is way off base, and to believe they simply hate westerners is wrong too. Finally, christians have been at war with Islam just as much as Islam has been at war with christianity.

Its time to end the we are the poor innocent victim lie and face the truth.