Atheists and the Dictatorship of Relativism

[makesenseplease]

i want to disagree here a bit.  Organized religious person, in spite of the Mornacs among them, are an amazing source of good in the world.  They feed to poor, the take care of the ill and the socially marginalized.  We can do this without organized religions but we cannot deny how effective organized religion has been doing these things.

It is also a source of iniquity, and that cannot be denied.

Excellent point, John.

[Velleity]

what SOME Christians believe it means

It is possible that all Christians are wrong. Nothing against Christians per se, as I would say it's probable that all human beings have it all wrong.

[johnhp]

Excellent point, John.

It bothers me when people think all X are Y.  It is just not the case.  Even a jerk can do good things.  Hell, especially jerks must be able to do good things.  None of us is without human frailties.

[johnhp]

It is possible that all Christians are wrong. Nothing against Christians per se, as I would say it's probable that all human beings have it all wrong.

i thought you were responding to thoughts concerning a particular textual history (eschatology or apocalypticism).  We can say with a great deal of certainty that people who interpret those texts as referring to future events (Christian or otherwise) are in error.  These texts refer to their own time, their own culture, their own history.

[Velleity]

i thought you were responding to thoughts concerning a particular textual history (eschatology or apocalypticism).  We can say with a great deal of certainty that people who interpret those texts as referring to future events (Christian or otherwise) are in error.  These texts refer to their own time, their own culture, their own history.

I was but I was trying to make a more general comment.

BTW I agree that religions are a source of a lot of good things, and about what the texts refer to. I just think there is a higher meaning, as I am sure you do too.

We know a lot of things the ancients never could have imagined. We know that the universe started as a tiny, infinitely dense and hot singularity. Then the universe expanded and the first element was hydrogen that coalesced into stars, and all of the heavier elements were created in stars. We are therefore stardust, but we are also more.

We know nothing about what came before that and we know nothing about what lies beyond. In fact we know very little about our universe, but here we are continuing to learn about it.

So what are we? Obviously we are of our universe.

So our minds are our universe trying to understand itself. That is what the ancients were doing, IMHO, with the tools they had at the time.

[johnhp]

I just think there is a higher meaning, as I am sure you do too.

Actually, i don't.  The idea of imposing transcendence on a text is, for me, the wrong direction to take.  i agree with philosophers like Adi Ophir that the usual method of understanding religion, as pointing to the transcendent reality (God, for example) is the wrong way of approaching that reality.

That reality, for me, is only approachable in relation to other human beings.  For me, to even entertain the idea of discussing any sort of transcendent reality is an atrocity or an obscenity because it adumbrates the full reality of the sacred that comes into being in the relationship of oneself to the other.


i am, in fact, rolling out this approach at a conference in Texas in a few months.

[Velleity]

Actually, i don't.  The idea of imposing transcendence on a text is, for me, the wrong direction to take.  i agree with philosophers like Adi Ophir that the usual method of understanding religion, as pointing to the transcendent reality (God, for example) is the wrong way of approaching that reality.

That reality, for me, is only approachable in relation to other human beings.  For me, to even entertain the idea of discussing any sort of transcendent reality is an atrocity or an obscenity because it adumbrates the full reality of the sacred that comes into being in the relationship of oneself to the other.


i am, in fact, rolling out this approach at a conference in Texas in a few months.

I am not referring to a transcendent reality or any reality at all. I am referring to a deeper meaning, as in "the sacred that comes into being in the relationship of oneself to the other."

[IM2]

It's written pretty plain whats going to happen.

But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Revelation 1:19

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 4:1

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Notice that the US is mentioned in revleations:

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle .

[JC]

IM,

 With all due respect, you are reading verses from a book that has been written by mere mortals-men, not “God” himself if there is such a thing. This book and it’s contents are almost always passed off to all of us as “the word of God”. How can you really know for sure? You have absolutely no solid tangible evidence or truth other than your “belief” or “faith”  that it is the truth.  No matter how eloquently written and versed, it might as well be fable or fairy tale. There is no proof or evidence in these verses or words but the reader is supposed to believe in order for it to be true. I’m having a very hard time with this book and it’s contents being constantly thrust at me by those who believe it because they can never offer up any solid proof to it’s contents being true, only their own faith and belief that it is. You have a tendency to use the choices of words ”it has been shown” and “it has been proven” all too often. In many cases when talking about present day current affairs or racism you are for the most part spot on or at least I agree with you.

   But when you point to this centuries old book, it’s predictions and your personal beliefs -coupled with flimsy explanations of why "God" chooses to let some live-some die,some prayers answered-some not, you have to understand why critical thinking individuals who base their beliefs on absolute proven or provable truths will continue to be skeptical. You can’t know absolutely that the United States of America, which was not in existence or even close to existence, is being referenced simply because these mere mortals mention the word “eagle” in their text. On one hand you can continue to believe what you want, but on the other you need to stop-when talking about your religious beliefs-you need to stop saying it has been shown or proven. It hasn’t. You just happen to believe it has, but can’t offer any solid tangible proof. This is one of the main reasons religion has started most of the wars of the world-people trying to force fuck their belief system on others, or claim their “truth” is the one truth above all others.

[IM2]

JC,

Until you recognize the existence of Satan, you cannot understand how God works and why certain things happen. If you do not believe in God, then you certainly cannot believe in Satan. If you don't think that the bible is the word of God, then you cannot believe that Satan exists either.

So like I said, to me it makes perfect sense. Also to me it is better for you guys to tell me I'm crazy and then when I die if there is nothing afterwards, then I am nothing and life continues on. But if I am right, and you guys die, then you face an eternity of suffering. Eternity is forever, and I would rather gamble that there is a god, and be wrong, than to gamble that there is not one and be wrong.

Neither of us knows what is true. You don't know nor does any of the rest of you who claim that the bible is a bunch of stories. Therefore what you claim is so provable is not, due to the fact that none of us truly know whether there is a God or not. I choose to believe in God, you choose not to. There is no real evidence that contradicts his existence. There is evidence scientists refuse to accept, but there is none that refute whether or not God made us, created the earth like its written or anything else.

With all due respect JC, there is nothing critical about the way you guys think. It’s rather simple minded. You can't see a God so there is none. Science cannot show you a God exists, there is none. That’s not critical thinking. Do you ever think about questioning your so called critical analysis? For example how did the hydrologic cycle get created?

Or why are there blocker sperm who work to soften the female egg so that we could be able to burst through and get born.

Who created cell division?

If there was a big bang, how come we have trees? How did the big bang create fish, birds, or humans?

You can’t know absolutely that the United States of America, which was not in existence or even close to existence, is being referenced simply because these mere mortals mention the word “eagle” in their text.

Doesn’t matter what your opinion is here JC, the fact is that the US is mentioned in that passage. The eagle and the other animals represent nations , that is the symbolism represented in revelations.

Again, you have the right to not believe, but don’t tell me that because you don’t believe that somehow you have thought more critically about it than I have and that you base your assumptions upon proven evidence like I can’t.. The simple fact you exist is evidence of something that your man made provable science cannot define. It can describe the process, but it still cannot explain to you why you were not a blocker sperm.

Do not think that everyone who believes is mornac. I come to my conclusions after a great deal of critical examination. There is just far too much evidence of the existence of God for me to say there is none just because I can’t seem him personally right at this very moment.

[JC]

Doesn’t matter what your opinion is here JC, the fact is that the US is mentioned in that passage.

The US being mentioned, as you put it is not a "fact". It is your interpretation or belief. You cannot say it is a fact. You can say it is your opinion, or your opinion that it is a fact. But in all honesty to presume that among other things the word and symbolism of the word "eagle" means in all absolute terms the United States, when you are reading a crystal fricking ball fairy tale centuries beforehand where they would have no absolute idea what animals or symbols would represent what (possible) nations in the future that haven't even come to fruition at that point- That is not fact, that is conjecture, hope, faith, and belief, but not fact.

 I never said your opinion doesn't matter, IM. I have treated you with a great deal of respect. For you to say my opinion doesn't matter, when I have done no such thing to you-are you sure you want to turn the page with me in that manner? Really?

[IM2]

JC,

Did not mean to say your opinion doesn't matter. It does and I have a great deal of respect for it. What I did not like is the assumption that I am simply basing what I believe on blind faith while you guys are somehow basing yours on critical thinking and analysis of what is seen as proven fact.

I base my belief upon the same type of critical thinking that you do. Questions that science has not been able to answer as it pertains to creation of processes they try to explain.

For example the eagle represents the USA JC, the bear Represents Russia. These symbols  are part of prophecy. Biblical scholars have made such determinations JC. You do understand that there are people out there who do study the written word and who do their level best to figure out what the symbolism means?

The bible is no fairy tale.  But you chose to believe it is, and I am not going to try changing your mind. Just understand that not every person who believes in God is a stark raving mad, tea baggin, anti abortion, racist, homophobic, right wing lunatic who uses the bible as shield to defend a political position that is blatantly ungodly. The truth is that if Jesus was here today his position would be considered liberal. Except he would not be for abortion. Therefore if any conservative claims that their position is the one Gods supports, they are totally incorrect. You will not find one word that Jesus spoke that supports the tough shit for you, don't help anyone position that conservatives take.

And this is how Satan works. But if you don't believe in God, you cannot believe in Satan. If you think the bible is nothing more than a bunch of fairly tales, then you will not see how Satan works on earth right now to fool people into thinking that it’s Gods will that the newborn infant got AIDS.