Atheists and the Dictatorship of Relativism

[makesenseplease]

Are you telling me that the Church doesn't set the standards of what the faithful are to believe?  If not, then you are all relativists!

The church has always tried to set the standard of what the faithful are to believe.  This is sort of like teaching the commandments of men and calling it sound doctrine.

Christ warns us against doing this, but we do it anyway.

[johnhp]

Odd. I was agreeing with you and mocking Mornac for his fixation on "relativism".

it did not read that way.  But feel free to avoid addressing his fascism.

[Velleity]

it did not read that way.  But feel free to avoid addressing his fascism.

You might have read it that way if you weren't predisposed to read it otherwise.

I am, of course, free to address or not address anything I want to address or not address. As are you.

[johnhp]

You might have read it that way if you weren't predisposed to read it otherwise.

I am, of course, free to address or not address anything I want to address or not address. As are you.

Bad conscience?

[IM2]

SC,

I can cut someone some slack regarding a basic belief in God.  After all, it's a mysterious and unsettling universe out there, even a scary one.  But how any modern person can believe in the bible in any kind of literal way, much less use it as factual evidence for anything, is completely beyond me.

Therein lies your problem. Why can't I be able to put together mans knowledge with biblical teachings and stories to make a conclusion about the existence of God?  Because you cannot say with any certainty there is no God. 2 years ago you could not say with any certainty there is another planet that has the potential of sustaining life, yet last week one was found in the universe hundreds of thousands of light years away, but it’s there. Leading scientists once thought the earth was flat. This was the prevailing thought, and anyone saying different was called crazy.

Science changes all the time. What is not believed one day becomes a known fact the next.  If God showed up tomorrow, all the scientists on earth would proclaim that God does exist, and that the bible is the documented word he presented to us. And you would be marching lock step with them.

I believe as I do, because I see predictions written coming to pass. Countless biblical prophecies have come to pass in our lifetimes and you know it. The request was for us to believe. It means we must believe in something we have never seen, you don't seem to have that ability and that's not to mean anything disrespectful. But I choose to believe.

Anatomically-modern humans have existed on the planet for about 100,000 years.  Homosapiens have existed for about 250,000 years.  Others forms of human-like beings existed as far back as 1,000,000 years ago or more.  Dinosaurs existed until about 65,000,000 years ago, and for about 165,000,000 years before that.  Life sprang up on this planet probably about 4,500,000,000 years ago.  Organisms have always decomposed following death, since life began.  It didn't just start when the bible was written.  The mythology was created by people to explain natural events, before there was such a thing as science.

Humans have existed, in some form, for at least 1,000,000 years.  Why was it only 3,000 years or so ago that God finally made his presence known to us?  And if Adam and Eve were real people, when did they live, 1,000,000 years ago?  That doesn't really mesh with the account of history given by the bible as a whole.  And how do you square the story of Adam and Eve with the science of evolution?

Have you ever taken the time to consider that all of this could have been what was described as creation in the bible? Have you ever taken the time to really read Genesis and  see how God made things and in what order?

Don't believe in evolution or should I say Darwin’s version of it.

In your concept of history, and reality, was there really a talking snake?

My concept and Gods concept are two different things SC.

Dagon/vel/sc,

it's funny but IM and i have already gone over this quite extensively.  he doesn't believe in the bible per se;  acknowledges the machinations of the "council of nicea", etc.  yet holds firm to end-time prophecies and the rapture.  it's a string of contradictions that i guess he has yet to reconcile.

i agree with him about more secular matters however.  i just let him go;  it is curious though.

I do believe in the word that is written in the bible. I do not believe that a bunch of rituals prove that I am any more closer to God than anyone else is, nor do those rituals mean I have any more understanding of Gods existence than anyone else. I believe that since God made nature, God created natural law, and that is the law we are to follow. This includes the spiritual, or our internal understanding of that law on how to treat others, how to manage the land and natural resources.

I also understand if there is a God, then there is a satan, and that satan does operate on this planet and creates t certain events to happen, such as the councils you cited. I understand that satan will use those who are in religious authority to do evil things. It is that evil which you pointed out, via the councils, the inquisition or the jihads.

I'm not the one who has any contradictions to reconcile. You guys do. You don't know what happens when we die. You don't know if God exists or not. You ignore the existence of evil, and then blame that evil on God, which makes you run from God, because the God you think exists is wrapped up in a religion.

I have never said anything bout any rapture, there ain’t gonna be no lifting people up to the sky. But there will be places shown to those who believe here on earth to get away from the nuclear blasts that will be part of WW3.

You see there has not been any time in world history that we have had the capacity to destroy all human life. There has been no time where we have had the ability to get information out as fast as we can now, and to get it out to places all over the world. We do now. Such things are part of biblical scripture you seem to miss because you are looking at the literal wording thinking that there is no way any locust is going to be spitting fire  at anyone, or that somehow a 12 headed beast will rise up out of the sea with a woman riding on it and that beast will go around eating up one third of the planet. Or that somehow all the water will suddenly turn to blood all by itself.

C'MON folks, you are far too intelligent to be this ignorant. I'm no literalist. The bible is  open to our reading and interpretation. We are to pay attention to what’s going on in the world as we live so that we do not fall for the evils satan puts out there. Satan will gladly pull you away from God. Satan operates inside of us just as much as God does. Satan is part of nature in us, the evil side of nature.

If Satan can question Jesus, and offer him all the world kingdoms, what do you think he will do to us? He could not fool Jesus, but he can fool us into thinking he does not exist, or that the bible is a bunch of mythology, or how could a God exist that would allow such suffering to go on, so there must be no god.

Yet God keeps his promises. He cannot return until every word that is written is fulfilled. But every word that is written is written in a manner that makes us understand that we have to pay attention to what’s going on around us.

Soon to come will be a powerful political leader who will be tied up with a powerful religious leader. That religious leader will influence the political leader. And what they do together will lead the world to WW3.  IN WW3 all nuclear and biological weapons will be used, wiping out most of humanity. The only thing that saves us from extinction will be intervention by God himself. This is some of what revelations is telling us. But you guys only see the beast with 12 horns ,  the scorpions and things of that nature.

[dagon]

SC,

Therein lies your problem. Why can't I be able to put together mans knowledge with biblical teachings and stories to make a conclusion about the existence of God?  Because you cannot say with any certainty there is no God. 2 years ago you could not say with any certainty there is another planet that has the potential of sustaining life, yet last week one was found in the universe hundreds of thousands of light years away, but it’s there. Leading scientists once thought the earth was flat. This was the prevailing thought, and anyone saying different was called crazy.

Science changes all the time. What is not believed one day becomes a known fact the next.  If God showed up tomorrow, all the scientists on earth would proclaim that God does exist, and that the bible is the documented word he presented to us. And you would be marching lock step with them.

I believe as I do, because I see predictions written coming to pass. Countless biblical prophecies have come to pass in our lifetimes and you know it. The request was for us to believe. It means we must believe in something we have never seen, you don't seem to have that ability and that's not to mean anything disrespectful. But I choose to believe.

Have you ever taken the time to consider that all of this could have been what was described as creation in the bible? Have you ever taken the time to really read Genesis and  see how God made things and in what order?

Don't believe in evolution or should I say Darwin’s version of it.

My concept and Gods concept are two different things SC.

Dagon/vel/sc,

I do believe in the word that is written in the bible. I do not believe that a bunch of rituals prove that I am any more closer to God than anyone else is, nor do those rituals mean I have any more understanding of Gods existence than anyone else. I believe that since God made nature, God created natural law, and that is the law we are to follow. This includes the spiritual, or our internal understanding of that law on how to treat others, how to manage the land and natural resources.

I also understand if there is a God, then there is a satan, and that satan does operate on this planet and creates t certain events to happen, such as the councils you cited. I understand that satan will use those who are in religious authority to do evil things. It is that evil which you pointed out, via the councils, the inquisition or the jihads.

I'm not the one who has any contradictions to reconcile. You guys do. You don't know what happens when we die. You don't know if God exists or not. You ignore the existence of evil, and then blame that evil on God, which makes you run from God, because the God you think exists is wrapped up in a religion.

I have never said anything bout any rapture, there ain’t gonna be no lifting people up to the sky. But there will be places shown to those who believe here on earth to get away from the nuclear blasts that will be part of WW3.

You see there has not been any time in world history that we have had the capacity to destroy all human life. There has been no time where we have had the ability to get information out as fast as we can now, and to get it out to places all over the world. We do now. Such things are part of biblical scripture you seem to miss because you are looking at the literal wording thinking that there is no way any locust is going to be spitting fire  at anyone, or that somehow a 12 headed beast will rise up out of the sea with a woman riding on it and that beast will go around eating up one third of the planet. Or that somehow all the water will suddenly turn to blood all by itself.

C'MON folks, you are far too intelligent to be this ignorant. I'm no literalist. The bible is  open to our reading and interpretation. We are to pay attention to what’s going on in the world as we live so that we do not fall for the evils satan puts out there. Satan will gladly pull you away from God. Satan operates inside of us just as much as God does. Satan is part of nature in us, the evil side of nature.

If Satan can question Jesus, and offer him all the world kingdoms, what do you think he will do to us? He could not fool Jesus, but he can fool us into thinking he does not exist, or that the bible is a bunch of mythology, or how could a God exist that would allow such suffering to go on, so there must be no god.

Yet God keeps his promises. He cannot return until every word that is written is fulfilled. But every word that is written is written in a manner that makes us understand that we have to pay attention to what’s going on around us.

Soon to come will be a powerful political leader who will be tied up with a powerful religious leader. That religious leader will influence the political leader. And what they do together will lead the world to WW3.  IN WW3 all nuclear and biological weapons will be used, wiping out most of humanity. The only thing that saves us from extinction will be intervention by God himself. This is some of what revelations is telling us. But you guys only see the beast with 12 horns ,  the scorpions and things of that nature.

i'm all about your spirituality IM.  i just think the bible is just so much hooey.  people have been prohecizing our demise based on that rag for centuries.  hasn't happened yet.

peace

[johnhp]

This is an odd discussion.  Religious doctrine largely concerns what we could call the extra-natural or supernatural.  As such, it is outside or other than the sort of discourse that can be verified.  Why people need to argue over it, or argues that someone needs to be subject to a particular version of it is beyond ridiculous.

For those of you, like me, who think this either-or fallacy Mornac is offering is just that, a fallacy, i suggest giving him the finger and moving on.  If, however, you are inclined to discuss his horseshittery, i suggest showing that he has abandoned the traditional way the theology he professes discusses the issues he has raised here with those outside of his tradition.  He undermines the basis of his own argument the minute he jettisoned natural law in favor of this either-or fallacy.

It really is that simple.  1. He begins by formulating a logical fallacy.  2. He claims that Catholicism is the basis for his position yet jettisons the way Catholics have traditionally discussed the issue.  Anything else is a waste of your breath because as you should all be aware, reason and simple discussion are two things quite beyond him.

[SpaceCadet]

SC,

Therein lies your problem. Why can't I be able to put together mans knowledge with biblical teachings and stories to make a conclusion about the existence of God?  Because you cannot say with any certainty there is no God.

I suppose you can.  But I can't.

2 years ago you could not say with any certainty there is another planet that has the potential of sustaining life, yet last week one was found in the universe hundreds of thousands of light years away, but it’s there.

Not with certainty, but we thought it very likely.  It's only 20 light years away.

Leading scientists once thought the earth was flat. This was the prevailing thought, and anyone saying different was called crazy.

Science changes all the time. What is not believed one day becomes a known fact the next.  If God showed up tomorrow, all the scientists on earth would proclaim that God does exist, and that the bible is the documented word he presented to us. And you would be marching lock step with them.

That's the great thing about science.  It's a methodology for developing knowledge, not some belief system that remains static for thousnds of years.

I believe as I do, because I see predictions written coming to pass. Countless biblical prophecies have come to pass in our lifetimes and you know it.

Acually, I don't know it.

The request was for us to believe. It means we must believe in something we have never seen, you don't seem to have that ability and that's not to mean anything disrespectful. But I choose to believe.

Please believe as you see fit.  I, myself, believe in many physical phenomena I can't see, but only because there is evidence for it.

Have you ever taken the time to consider that all of this could have been what was described as creation in the bible? Have you ever taken the time to really read Genesis and  see how God made things and in what order?

Yes, to both questions.

Don't believe in evolution or should I say Darwin’s version of it.

The science of biology has moved far past Darwin, and the whole of that branch of science is now based on evolution as a fundamental principle.

My concept and Gods concept are two different things.

Dagon/vel/sc,

I do believe in the word that is written in the bible. I do not believe that a bunch of rituals prove that I am any more closer to God than anyone else is, nor do those rituals mean I have any more understanding of Gods existence than anyone else. I believe that since God made nature, God created natural law, and that is the law we are to follow. This includes the spiritual, or our internal understanding of that law on how to treat others, how to manage the land and natural resources.

I also understand if there is a God, then there is a satan, and that satan does operate on this planet and creates t certain events to happen, such as the councils you cited. I understand that satan will use those who are in religious authority to do evil things. It is that evil which you pointed out, via the councils, the inquisition or the jihads.

I'm not the one who has any contradictions to reconcile. You guys do. You don't know what happens when we die. You don't know if God exists or not. You ignore the existence of evil, and then blame that evil on God, which makes you run from God, because the God you think exists is wrapped up in a religion.

I have never said anything bout any rapture, there ain’t gonna be no lifting people up to the sky. But there will be places shown to those who believe here on earth to get away from the nuclear blasts that will be part of WW3.

You see there has not been any time in world history that we have had the capacity to destroy all human life. There has been no time where we have had the ability to get information out as fast as we can now, and to get it out to places all over the world. We do now. Such things are part of biblical scripture you seem to miss because you are looking at the literal wording thinking that there is no way any locust is going to be spitting fire  at anyone, or that somehow a 12 headed beast will rise up out of the sea with a woman riding on it and that beast will go around eating up one third of the planet. Or that somehow all the water will suddenly turn to blood all by itself.

C'MON folks, you are far too intelligent to be this ignorant. I'm no literalist. The bible is  open to our reading and interpretation. We are to pay attention to what’s going on in the world as we live so that we do not fall for the evils satan puts out there. Satan will gladly pull you away from God. Satan operates inside of us just as much as God does. Satan is part of nature in us, the evil side of nature.

If Satan can question Jesus, and offer him all the world kingdoms, what do you think he will do to us? He could not fool Jesus, but he can fool us into thinking he does not exist, or that the bible is a bunch of mythology, or how could a God exist that would allow such suffering to go on, so there must be no god.

Yet God keeps his promises. He cannot return until every word that is written is fulfilled. But every word that is written is written in a manner that makes us understand that we have to pay attention to what’s going on around us.

Soon to come will be a powerful political leader who will be tied up with a powerful religious leader. That religious leader will influence the political leader. And what they do together will lead the world to WW3.  IN WW3 all nuclear and biological weapons will be used, wiping out most of humanity. The only thing that saves us from extinction will be intervention by God himself. This is some of what revelations is telling us. But you guys only see the beast with 12 horns ,  the scorpions and things of that nature.

[JC]

  IN WW3 all nuclear and biological weapons will be used, wiping out most of humanity. The only thing that saves us from extinction will be intervention by God himself. This is some of what revelations is telling us. But you guys only see the beast with 12 horns ,  the scorpions and things of that nature.

With a great deal of respect to you, IM: No disrespect whatsoever, but I will have to disagree with the idea that "God" would suddenly wake his (or her) ass up and suddenly decide to save us from extinction or finally only then choose to intervene? Why now? Why, if the Jews were or are Gods "Chosen People" did he not choose to save SIX million or more of them from furnaces and chemical baths, or save the folks in the towers on 9/11, but then decide to all of a sudden cherry pick what he/her wants to save? i have a real problem with this theory,prophecy,quatrain,prediction,belief-whatever you want to call it.

 This is very similar to the constant use of "it must be God's will" or plan as it were. How can people continue to use the God excuse for anything that does or does not go their way.

 Also, I don't see any "beast w/ 12 horns or scorpions"BS either. But I do see stories similar to what I would call fairy tales-about this kind of thing. I am sorry to have to say this as I do have a great deal of respect for you and your views until it comes to the whole religion thing. Why must I believe that God "chooses" to let certain people live and other's die on a whim based on some undefined will or purpose? When we pray and things don't go our way it's "his' will? And likewise if it works out? I'm not buying this anymore. Don't forget-I was raised in a Catholic household and taught all the same fairy tales. But once I became an adult and individual capable of my own critical thinking, I can't buy into the garbage any longer.

[SpaceCadet]

With a great deal of respect to you, IM: No disrespect whatsoever, but I will have to disagree with the idea that "God" would suddenly wake his (or her) ass up and suddenly decide to save us from extinction or finally only then choose to intervene? Why now? Why, if the Jews were or are Gods "Chosen People" did he not choose to save SIX million or more of them from furnaces and chemical baths, or save the folks in the towers on 9/11, but then decide to all of a sudden cherry pick what he/her wants to save? i have a real problem with this theory,prophecy,quatrain,prediction,belief-whatever you want to call it.

 This is very similar to the constant use of "it must be God's will" or plan as it were. How can people continue to use the God excuse for anything that does or does not go their way.

 Also, I don't see any "beast w/ 12 horns or scorpions"BS either. But I do see stories similar to what I would call fairy tales-about this kind of thing. I am sorry to have to say this as I do have a great deal of respect for you and your views until it comes to the whole religion thing. Why must I believe that God "chooses" to let certain people live and other's die on a whim based on some undefined will or purpose? When we pray and things don't go our way it's "his' will? And likewise if it works out? I'm not buying this anymore. Don't forget-I was raised in a Catholic household and taught all the same fairy tales. But once I became an adult and individual capable of my own critical thinking, I can't buy into the garbage any longer.

babies born with AIDS, small children developing cancer, children starving to death in Africa, ...  God works in mysterious ways, doncha know.   

Additionally, despite many prayers to the contrary, the Broncos are now 2-4!   

[JC]

Further....Why,wouldn't the hand of God choose to save babies from abortion and stop all doctors beforehand, yet magically decide to (presumably) save mankind from a world war 3 but not save his chosen darlings from the holocaust? This whole "cherry picking scenario" and justifying or lack of justifying exactly where and why "God" chooses to act and not act......no rhyme or reason to it-you have to make a better case for believing if you want to win over logic and critically thinking folks. Not to mention-(actually precisely to mention) the collar and robe wearing idiots who are trying to perpetuate these myths can't be trusted to not sexually molest or violate those who they are trying to "save"? I'm sorry but facts and evidence bear more merit than the fear based myths perpetuated.

 and people have the gall to mock Barack for hope and change? Religion(any)seems to be chock full of the nonsense....

[SpaceCadet]

Further....Why,wouldn't the hand of God choose to save babies from abortion and stop all doctors beforehand, yet magically decide to (presumably) save mankind from a world war 3 but not save his chosen darlings from the holocaust? This whole "cherry picking scenario" and justifying or lack of justifying exactly where and why "God" chooses to act and not act......no rhyme or reason to it-you have to make a better case for believing if you want to win over logic and critically thinking folks. Not to mention-(actually precisely to mention) the collar and robe wearing idiots who are trying to perpetuate these myths can't be trusted to not sexually molest or violate those who they are trying to "save"? I'm sorry but facts and evidence bear more merit than the fear based myths perpetuated.

 and people have the gall to mock Barack for hope and change? Religion(any)seems to be chock full of the nonsense....

It's human nature, when not following the scientific method, to latch onto that which seems to verify our preconceptions, while ignoring and forgetting that which does not.  It's even difficult to avoid it when trying to follow the scientific method, if the researcher is at all personally invested psychologically in a particular conclusion.  The fact that people want to believe a certain thing makes it almost certain that they will do so.

[johnhp]

Further....Why,wouldn't the hand of God choose to save babies from abortion and stop all doctors beforehand

How much do you want to bet that many of the right wingers look at people like Scott Roeder as carrying out just that?  Not IM, but right wingers.

[IM2]

Dagon,

i'm all about your spirituality IM.  i just think the bible is just so much hooey.  people have been prohecizing our demise based on that rag for centuries.  hasn't happened yet.

peace

The problem with those predicting is that they did not seem to understand that every word of the bible must be fulfilled before God returns. It’s written for all to see.

For example until the last 50-60 years we did not have the capacity to wipe ourselves off the planet. No matter how much damage old style bombs could do, you could live after they were done. But nuclear and biological stuff lingers in the atmosphere and you can get radiation sickness long after you come out of the bomb shelters. It's written that men will be suffering and wish they could die, but can't. Well that’s what radiation sickness did to those in Japan. They were suffering, wishing they could die, but could not die. So until there is a geopolitical system with a charismatic leader who partners with a religious leader and they form an alliance that controls the world trade and economics, then no one can accurately predict that God is coming to destroy us. Yet as we live today, such an entity is being formed and it’s called the EU. Once the EU comes together, it will have formed one of the world’s most powerful economic and political entities of all time. Then watch out for the catholic church, who very well may have a priest rising up out of the ashes who will be in partnership with the leader of this political entity when he becomes the pope. And this religious leader will be able for perform miracles, and will control a large religion, this is also part of prophecy that has not come true yet. Only the catholic church has such a large membership with one man controlling all laws.

I could be wrong about the catholic church, but there will be a religious leader who will have serious influence in the world, and that person will teach against gods laws, that person will declare that they are god, and all of those things. This has not happened yet, and I guess we should be real glad it hasn’t because those will be very bad times.

JC/ SC,

With a great deal of respect to you, IM: No disrespect whatsoever, but I will have to disagree with the idea that "God" would suddenly wake his (or her) ass up and suddenly decide to save us from extinction or finally only then choose to intervene? Why now? Why, if the Jews were or are Gods "Chosen People" did he not choose to save SIX million or more of them from furnaces and chemical baths, or save the folks in the towers on 9/11, but then decide to all of a sudden cherry pick what he/her wants to save? i have a real problem with this theory,prophecy,quatrain,prediction,belief-whatever you want to call it.

I have no problem with people not agreeing with me. I just like a vigorous debate.

Again, God must keep his promises to us. One of his promises is that he will not come back until every word written in the bible is fulfilled. So then we must understand that satan has been given charge of the earth. This is what I mean when I say that satan commits evil and people then put it on God. What happened to the Jews was satanic, and God did intervene by making Hitler decide to invade Russia. If he had not, he very well may have won the war and controlled the world. God leaves us his laws and we get to choose to follow them or not to. If we do not, there are penalties, and some of them are not pleasant. 9-11, for example was a penalty our nation had to pay for its constant godlessness. So is the upcoming fall of America.

Adam was told that if he ate the fruit he would surely die. He ate it, and the penalty for his doing so was that we all must die. God did not want us to die, but Adam chose death by his individual choice to eat the forbidden fruit.

Further....Why,wouldn't the hand of God choose to save babies from abortion and stop all doctors beforehand, yet magically decide to (presumably) save mankind from a world war 3 but not save his chosen darlings from the holocaust? This whole "cherry picking scenario" and justifying or lack of justifying exactly where and why "God" chooses to act and not act......no rhyme or reason to it-you have to make a better case for believing if you want to win over logic and critically thinking folks. Not to mention-(actually precisely to mention) the collar and robe wearing idiots who are trying to perpetuate these myths can't be trusted to not sexually molest or violate those who they are trying to "save"? I'm sorry but facts and evidence bear more merit than the fear based myths perpetuated.

No disrespect intended, but it is not logical to not believe, in my view. Again, what must be understood is that every word that is written must come to pass before God can return. If he did otherwise, he would not be telling us the truth. The fact is, that God acts in big ways and in small ways every day and for everyone. It is written that diseases and pestilences must occur, before God comes back. These diseases are not because God put them on us, they are a result of us not living by the laws God set for cleanliness, how to care for the land and animals, and how to take care of the environment. Abortion is another man made choice, and the penalty for that choice is part of what’s going on now. There are laws we are to live by and they are written, and there are written penalties for not following those laws. Fornication is against Gods law, and I know that is an area where I have been guilty of breaking the law. And I have and experienced some very real punishment for doing so. This is something I am trying to change.

In short, we put these things on ourselves because we break the simple natural laws God has set for us. It’s not because God has decided to do anything.  WE have broken the law, and when you break laws there are consequences and penalties. You also must understand that God will allow you to keep on breaking his laws for a time to give you the chance to choose to do right on your own. As for the catholic priests, they fell right into Satan’s trap. And they did so when they decided that they could make all kinds of rules and interpretations on how people are to worship, when they decided to ritualize, and when they decided that all you needed to do was confess to a priest, and that priest is your representative to God in earth.

All that is way wrong. We are our own representatives, and if we do wrong we need to confess to God ourselves, no absolution can save you if you keep doing the same thing thinking that you can get absolution and all is forgiven. Repentance is demanded, and repentance means that you change in order to get rid of the offending behavior.

This is very similar to the constant use of "it must be God's will" or plan as it were. How can people continue to use the God excuse for anything that does or does not go their way.

This is an excuse. Gods plan is for all of us to follow his laws so that our lives would be easier. Once we stray from that path, then what happens to us is not Gods will. It is what we caused because of OUR will.

Also, I don't see any "beast w/ 12 horns or scorpions"BS either. But I do see stories similar to what I would call fairy tales-about this kind of thing. I am sorry to have to say this as I do have a great deal of respect for you and your views until it comes to the whole religion thing. Why must I believe that God "chooses" to let certain people live and other's die on a whim based on some undefined will or purpose? When we pray and things don't go our way it's "his' will? And likewise if it works out? I'm not buying this anymore. Don't forget-I was raised in a Catholic household and taught all the same fairy tales. But once I became an adult and individual capable of my own critical thinking, I can't buy into the garbage any longer.

I am not here trying to convert people. I simply say I believe in God. You have the right to not believe. The way I see god is the way I have been shown. You have been shown another way perhaps, but it all takes us the same way. Understand that Jesus was crucified, and he was Gods son. This did not have to happen, but it was written ha tit must happen so it did. If God could have stopped anything it was this. But he had to let it happen because the thing you guys fail to get is that God is truth. For him to have told the word a messiah was coming down and would die to save us, and then he allowed Jesus to live would have contradicted God being the truth. If he cannot let his words stand until it’s done, then what he teaches loses its validity.

God did not choose for this to be a violent hate filled world. We did that. And we did it because some of us chose to believe that God does not exist because we can’t see him, or that we just can’t seem to put facts together enough to satisfy us of his existence. Others chose to use God as shield to misuse people or to gain and maintain power, wealth and fame. Yet the proof of his existence is all round us. It’s not illogical to believe in God JC, it’s illogical not to.

[dagon]

i just find it curious that on one hand, you seem to acknowledge that the bible is a manipulated document; written by men but on the other hand you suggest that the end-time prophecies can't come to pass unless every word is born out.

don't you see the contradiction in that?

and yes it's true that never before have we had the capacity to completely eradicate ourselves but that doesn't mean the end is nigh and doesn't give the bible any more credibility than say, "The Lord of The Rings" or "Alas, Babylon".

peace