Can we admit that the "stimulus" is a failure?

[IM2]

Space cadet,

What has the government done "right"?  I just dealt with the government on unemployment benefits, and they certainly didn't do that right.  I'm working again now, but I'm still dealing with straightening out the mess they made out of the short time I was on UI benefits.

We have several outstanding government programs. The military, and medicare to name just 2, and what you don't seem to get is that if you think the government is inefficient, understand that the  private sector is no better if not worse. What you also do not seem to realize is that before the government does thigns like creating a stuimulus package they hold hearings and the hearings usually consist of big wigs in the private sector, universities and things of that nature who give their expert opinions on such matters. Therefore your assertion that government fails at everything and if you believe that the best case scenario is the private sector, your argument falls on its face simply because of that alone.

Ok, I'll try asking again.  How many trillions should we have spent.  Is there any limit?

We spent no trillions to start with SC. Perhaps you need to ask our republican friends how many trillions they wasted to create the mess we are in instead of falling for the he spent too much and thats why we are here lie. Secondly I don't have the answer of hiow much would be enough economists would. It was warned that not enough stimulus would cause problems, and Obama always trying to appease republicans fell into the trap of not investing enough. I think those who think like you need to understand that the stimulus is an investment. If we can invest in every damn thing else, why can't our goverment invest in our own economy? I would rather my tax money go to invest in our country than to give away other nations that hate us. This stimulus package is exactly what I would like to see my money try to do.

Really?  How exactly was he going to do that?

Health care for example. Cap and trade, trying to get us into creating green jobs. All of that.

I think that was ridiculous.  You should try not to develop the notion that I am in any way a fan of the Repubs.  I'm not.

SC I know you are no fan of republicans, and I do respect you. We simply differ on this issue and thats fine. I beleive that government has a role, and that in reality since there will always be government in our lives, we need to understand what government does instead of spinning opinion on what WE each think that government should be doing.

If republicans had worked with Obama instead oof simpy saying that we wil ony do it if we do it 100 percent theyway we  wantot do it, then we might be out of theis recession, and unemployment would be reduced to a managable rate. Instead republicans are taking the gamble that everyone will forget that they have a role to play in the problems that exist now, and will blame it all on the democrats. Republicans created the mess we are in, and what they want to do will create a greater deficit according to the CBO. So then what we need to do is support what the democrats are trying to do, because if we do not and our complaining allows republicans back in total control, we are fucked.

I don't believe Obama expected everyone in the whole country to join hands and work together.  I don't believe he's that stupid.  If he is that stupid and naive, then he doesn't belong in government.  It's never been that way.

C'mon SC, why the ridiculous comment about holding hands and shit. Thats stupid. You knew exactly what i meant when I posted.Obama may not have expected everyone to hold hands  but I do believe he thought he could bring the country a ltitle closer together than it is right now. What has happened is absolute republican opposition and that has dome more harm and damage than anything else. It keeps the market remain uncertain and that uncertainty creates no hiring for work. They want to see the economy collapse so they can regain power. And when they regain power theywant to make permanent the tax cuts for the richest of all, again, a plan that is scored lowest by the CBO, therefore they want to implement a plan that is going to explode the deficit far beyond what it is now.. I this they type of leadership you want?  Because complaining like a republican about the investment that was made relative to this stimulus is what will make it happen.

I haven't forgotten any of that.  I simply don't see the bang for the buck.  It's that simple.

As I was driving home from texas, after a convention I attended last month I saw several stimulus projkects. As I was driving home from Wichita Last week, I saw several more. I don't think you are paying attention SC. You simply went with the "he's spending too much" crowd and have ignored the reality that if this had not been done, you certianly would be feeeling it right now. Sometimes its better to not see the bang than to se ethe bang that blow up right in your face.

[SpaceCadet]

SpaceCadet.. can you tell me something.   Where do you suppose the economy would be right now without the government stimulus (ie recovery act)?   Better or worse than it is right now?   Simple question.

About the same as it is now, as I've said several times.  It might have gotten slightly worse before it started to improve, but the benefit was not worth the cost.

[IM2]

No SC.  If not for the stimulus we would be in the mires of a depression.

[Velleity]

About the same as it is now, as I've said several times.  It might have gotten slightly worse before it started to improve, but the benefit was not worth the cost.

Why are you so good with objective data on something like global warming, and so shoot from the hip like a "conservative" on economics? Where is your objective evidence?

On global warming "conservatives" claim that we don't have enough evidence even though we're 90% certain that human activity is changing our environment. Notice that Dick Cheney said that we had to invade Iraq even if the chances that he had WMD were only 1%. Here we have a 90% chance that our activities are causing a catastrophic change in our environment, possibly rendering us extinct as a species, and yet "conservatives" say that's not good enough to take actions that we should be taking anyway.

Why do you suppose their intellectual incoherence on global warming isn't the same as their intellectual incoherence on economic issues, or on any other issues for that matter?

I would think you would strive for something a little better.

[SpaceCadet]

Why are you so good with objective data on something like global warming, and so shoot from the hip like a "conservative" on economics? Where is your objective evidence?

On global warming "conservatives" claim that we don't have enough evidence even though we're 90% certain that human activity is changing our environment. Notice that Dick Cheney said that we had to invade Iraq even if the chances that he had WMD were only 1%. Here we have a 90% chance that our activities are causing a catastrophic change in our environment, possibly rendering us extinct as a species, and yet "conservatives" say that's not good enough to take actions that we should be taking anyway.

Why do you suppose their intellectual incoherence on global warming isn't the same as their intellectual incoherence on economic issues, or on any other issues for that matter?

I would think you would strive for something a little better.

I can't run controlled experiments on the economy.  But I do know that the government can't "fix" the economy.  And I can look at the curent data and see that the economy is not improving very much, despite the government's efforts.

With 20/20 hindsight, it seems almost obvious that the Bush administration had it about right on this particular issue.  The TARP probably did keep us from going into a recession.  It was also a loack of regulation on their part that created the problem in the first place.  I'm just not seeing much of anything fruitful from Obama's later stimulus plan, which is what I predicted wen it was first enacted.

[Velleity]

I can't run controlled experiments on the economy.  But I do know that the government can't "fix" the economy.  And I can look at the curent data and see that the economy is not improving very much, despite the government's efforts.

With 20/20 hindsight, it seems almost obvious that the Bush administration had it about right on this particular issue.  The TARP probably did keep us from going into a recession.  It was also a loack of regulation on their part that created the problem in the first place.  I'm just not seeing much of anything fruitful from Obama's later stimulus plan, which is what I predicted wen it was first enacted.

The current data shows that the economy is improving and that it has been improving.

[SpaceCadet]

The current data shows that the economy is improving and that it has been improving.

I don't have time to find a source to link to, but I'm pretty sure we are losing jobs currently and economic growth is slowing.

[IM2]

SC,

 I'm just not seeing much of anything fruitful from Obama's later stimulus plan, which is what I predicted wen it was first enacted.

You're not seeing because you don't want to see. You don't want any government plan to suceed because then your belief that government does not help in such matters would be shown incorrect. But when a state can retain all of their teachers, police, law enforcement and legal woerkers, firefighters, classified workers and the like because of stimulus money, it shows that the stimulus does work, because thousands if not millions of people are still employed, working and spending money.

What Bush and the republicans did to us was far worse than you seem to realize.

And the amount of stimulus approved was far less than what was needed. But due to the whining of those who listened to the radio show hosts whine about the amount being proposed and who simply refused to see how close to the end we really were, this is what we got.

[Velleity]

I don't have time to find a source to link to, but I'm pretty sure we are losing jobs currently and economic growth is slowing.

The jobs being lost are government jobs because 31 states have deficits of over 10%. Economic growth has slowed but it's still economic growth. Is it time to panic? I doubt it.

SpaceCadet, the problem is that we've declared war on the middle class over the past 30 years. The Democrats have been complicit. If you were a business owner would you be banking on the American consumer? Right now we're not consuming. If you were a small business, would you be hiring and investing based on a notion that we will be consuming again any time soon? If we're not consuming what happens to state revenues, partially dependent on sales taxes?

Is that a problem? Why yes, it is. Now tell me what "conservatives" will do to rectify this. Do you think tax cuts for rich people makes any sense at all?

But that doesn't mean the sky is falling. This too shall pass.

[SpaceCadet]

The jobs being lost are government jobs because 31 states have deficits of over 10%. Economic growth has slowed but it's still economic growth. Is it time to panic? I doubt it.

SpaceCadet, the problem is that we've declared war on the middle class over the past 30 years. The Democrats have been complicit. If you were a business owner would you be banking on the American consumer? Right now we're not consuming. If you were a small business, would you be hiring and investing based on a notion that we will be consuming again any time soon? If we're not consuming what happens to state revenues, partially dependent on sales taxes?

Is that a problem? Why yes, it is. Now tell me what "conservatives" will do to rectify this. Do you think tax cuts for rich people makes any sense at all?

But that doesn't mean the sky is falling. This too shall pass.

Hell, no!  I just hope the government doesn't do any further damage.

[Velleity]

Hell, no!  I just hope the government doesn't do any further damage.

Let me ask you this. FDR took over 4 years into the Great Republican Depression I. He spent money and continued to spend it until 1937, and the economy improved slowly but surely in 1937. In 1937 he bought into Republican austerity hysterics and we went into a recession. It wasn't until the massive deficit spending of WWII that we really came out of the Great Republican Depression I, and we came out of it because we had pent up demand and people had money in their pockets and because the GI Bill fueled housing and education.

Now look at the pathetic Observer, who makes baseless claims about how Keynesian economics is wrong and spins tales of FDR making the Great Republican Depression I worse.

Please tell me why anyone would pay any attention whatsoever to Observer and his ilk? I'm just not going to buy into the fear mongering SpaceCadet. You have a good brain and I don't see why you would buy into it either.

There is only 1 hard and fast rule in economics and that is that everything will change. Look back on your lifetime and tell me that isn't true. We will achieve a sustainable recovery sooner or later. I would hope we would not succumb to "conservative" tax sophistry which brought us here in the first place. Our economy will grow--there are some real signs that China too is changing and this will bring opportunities. They have more than three times our population but their economy is only a third the size of ours and they're still well behind us in infrastructure and accumulated wealth.

The sky is not falling. We will achieve some real growth here as our own comparative advantages are realized. We will get out of our debt the way we got out of it after the Great Republican Depression I. It took years and years but essentially we grew our way out of it.

Now, what more do you really need to know?

[Velleity]

This kind of out of control government spending has never worked in the past. It isn't working now. It will never work in the future.

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work ... After eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!"
Henry Morgenthau
Treasury Secretary under FDR, after 2 terms of FDR's "New Deal".

Some people just never learn.

 

Give it a break Observer. Your Morganthau "argument" isn't a real argument, even if you weren't quoting Morganthau out of context.

In any event you're the one mindlessly mspewing the same "conservative" think tank disinformation over and over, and pretending that it isn't discredited. No serious minded person buys into this nonsense.

[IM2]

Hell, no!  I just hope the government doesn't do any further damage.

The only damage government did was allow conservatives to rule.