Stephen Hawking’s flawed view of the Big Picture

[Mornac]

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HAWKING POSITS FALSE CONFLICT

June 8, 2010

In an interview last night with ABC-News reporter Diane Sawyer, scientist Stephen Hawking opined that human life is "insignificant in the universe," and then went on to say that "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason." He concluded by saying, "Science will win because it works."

Catholic League president Bill Donohue took exception to Hawking's views today:

How any rational person could belittle the pivotal role that human life plays in the universe is a wonder, but it is just as silly to say that all religions are marked by the absence of reason. While there are some religions which are devoid of reason, there are others, such as Roman Catholicism, which have long assigned it a special place.

It was the Catholic Church that created the first universities, and it was the Catholic Church that played a central role in the Scientific Revolution; these two historical contributions made possible Mr. Hawking's career.

Reason, in pursuit of truth, has been reiterated by the Church fathers for nearly two millennia. That is why Hawking posits a false conflict: in the annals of the Catholic Church, there is no inherent conflict between science and religion. Quite the contrary: science and religion, in Catholic thought, are complementary properties. Ergo, nothing is gained by alleging a "victory" of science over religion.
 
Religion without reason, Pope Benedict XVI instructed us in his Regensburg address in 2006, leads to fanaticism. That much Hawking seems to understand. What he doesn't get is its contra: science without faith also leads to disaster—the genocidal regimes in Germany, the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia being Exhibits A, B, C and D.

http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1879

[Velleity]

"Belittle the pivotal role that life plays in the universe?"

Where is the reason in that statement?

[Mornac]

I dunno, but if you look at this statement from the above story it makes a lot of sense:

“…belittle the pivotal role that human life plays in the universe…”

Imagine just our planet without human life for a moment. Now consider it at it as it exists with human life. Notice a difference? Wouldn't you say there is something pivotal about the role of human life?

[Velleity]

I dunno, but if you look at this statement from the above story it makes a lot of sense:

“…belittle the pivotal role that human life plays in the universe…”

Imagine just our planet without human life for a moment. Now consider it at it as it exists with human life. Notice a difference? Wouldn't you say there is something pivotal about the role of human life?

There are a 100 thousand million stars in the milky way alone, and since there are millions of other galaxyies that means there are many times more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on earth.

The universe is 13.3 to 13.9 billion years old while our species has been around for a measly 20,000 years. We wouldn't be here at all but for the fact that an asteroid hit the earth and rendered the dominant species extinct.

In the meantime we are destroying our own environment and have probably already passed that tipping point. We could destroy ourselves in other ways in an instant. We kill and maim each other and cause misery and despair, for what reason? So we accumulate "money", whatever that is supposed to mean?

Our cousins the Neanderthal survived for 200,000 years and probably died off because of us.

What is it exactly that you think makes us so great? We're nothing at all compared to the rest of the universe. Our time is pretty much nothing compared to the age of the universe. Our greatest accomplishment is probably rendering ourselves extinct.

We aren't even a successful species Mornac.

[Pepsi]

It wasn't that long ago that people believed the earth was the center of the universe.   Now of course we realize we are a small planet in an small solar system with a dying sun, one of billions/ a flash in the pan in an immense universe so big we cannot begin to fathom it.

[Velleity]

It wasn't that long ago that people believed the earth was the center of the universe.   Now of course we realize we are a small planet in an small solar system with a dying sun, one of billions/ a flash in the pan in an immense universe so big we cannot begin to fathom it.

I don't understand the need to believe that we're anything more. If we're not, then we're not. So what? If we are more then we would prove it by actions--not by declaring that God says it is so or pretending and wishing with our hearts that some amorphous being loves us and cares for us.

Maybe what Mornac really refuses to understand here is how irrelevant we are, and very distinct possibility that there really is nothing for us after we die? I am amazed at adults who say they're afraid of this possibility. If that's the way it is then there's not a damn thing one can do about it. I mean when you look at a dried up, chemically treated Egyptian mummy and realize that they were packed up with anything an ancient Egyptian could ever need or want, do you think "hey, what a great idea?" Or do you think this individual had it any better than your average poor schmuck of an ancient Egyptian, once the lights went out?

I'm perfectly content to not guess what's going to happen and simply do the best I can do in my life just for the sake of doing the best I can do. I have had a chance to live and to be. How great is that? Why does that have to be embellished with the idea of an afterlife?

[dagon]

I don't understand the need to believe that we're anything more. If we're not, then we're not. So what? If we are more then we would prove it by actions--not by declaring that God says it is so or pretending and wishing with our hearts that some amorphous being loves us and cares for us.

Maybe what Mornac really refuses to understand here is how irrelevant we are, and very distinct possibility that there really is nothing for us after we die? I am amazed at adults who say they're afraid of this possibility. If that's the way it is then there's not a damn thing one can do about it. I mean when you look at a dried up, chemically treated Egyptian mummy and realize that they were packed up with anything an ancient Egyptian could ever need or want, do you think "hey, what a great idea?" Or do you think this individual had it any better than your average poor schmuck of an ancient Egyptian, once the lights went out?

I'm perfectly content to not guess what's going to happen and simply do the best I can do in my life just for the sake of doing the best I can do. I have had a chance to live and to be. How great is that? Why does that have to be embellished with the idea of an afterlife?

very well stated vell

peace

[ivanm]

I dunno, but if you look at this statement from the above story it makes a lot of sense:

“…belittle the pivotal role that human life plays in the universe…”

Imagine just our planet without human life for a moment. Now consider it at it as it exists with human life. Notice a difference? Wouldn't you say there is something pivotal about the role of human life?

I doubt our presence would be missed if we were gone.  Other forms of animal life apparently existed long before humans came along and will probably live long after we screw up the atmosphere so bad that we cannot survive.

Yes, it would look different without tall buildings, miles of hiways, and all the trappings of engineering.  But does our presence have any appreciable effect on the universe?  I doubt it.

[johnhp]

With all due respect, i think you all are missing the real point here.  Look at what the idiot Donohue writes at the end:

science without faith also leads to disaster—the genocidal regimes in Germany, the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia being Exhibits A, B, C and D.

The Spanish Inquisition, on the other hand, was benign?  The unspoken words in Donohue's statement is a collusion between a very narrow and misguided understanding of Catholicism and the State.  Also the presumption that there was no "religion" (the fanaticism of the true believer) in his examples is ridiculous.

[ivanm]

It wasn't that long ago that people believed the earth was the center of the universe.   Now of course we realize we are a small planet in an small solar system with a dying sun, one of billions/ a flash in the pan in an immense universe so big we cannot begin to fathom it.

A dying sun?  How is that significant to us?  What is the life expectancy of the sun?

Nihilism?  The trait of a cynical liberal?  

Pepsi there are certain things about our fate that we have no control over so set them aside and don't worry your little head over the dying sun.  Not even your "big brother" can alter the lifespan of the sun.

[ivanm]

With all due respect, i think you all are missing the real point here.  Look at what the idiot Donohue writes at the end:

The Spanish Inquisition, on the other hand, was benign?  The unspoken words in Donohue's statement is a collusion between a very narrow and misguided understanding of Catholicism and the State.  Also the presumption that there was no "religion" (the fanaticism of the true believer) in his examples is ridiculous.

When it comes to applied science I do think that a scientist's regard for the welfare of humanity, or the lack of it, has a bearing on the application.  In the case of the A bomb, it wasn't a scientist that took the calculated risk of dropping eggs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Nope, it was a liberal politician named Harry Truman.

Even now we have in our inventory some God awful doomsday weapons. Who came up with the principles?  Probably scientists, but who will decide whether or not to use them?  Probably a politician. One might say that politicians are scientists in that they deal in the science of human relations, for lack of a better term.

To me such things as the Spanish inquisiton are examples of faith gone awry or being corrupted.  Look at Mt. Carmel and at the Jonestown masacre.  These tragedies involved some rather strange "faiths". 

[ivanm]

I don't understand the need to believe that we're anything more. If we're not, then we're not. So what? If we are more then we would prove it by actions--not by declaring that God says it is so or pretending and wishing with our hearts that some amorphous being loves us and cares for us.

Maybe what Mornac really refuses to understand here is how irrelevant we are, and very distinct possibility that there really is nothing for us after we die? I am amazed at adults who say they're afraid of this possibility. If that's the way it is then there's not a damn thing one can do about it. I mean when you look at a dried up, chemically treated Egyptian mummy and realize that they were packed up with anything an ancient Egyptian could ever need or want, do you think "hey, what a great idea?" Or do you think this individual had it any better than your average poor schmuck of an ancient Egyptian, once the lights went out?

I'm perfectly content to not guess what's going to happen and simply do the best I can do in my life just for the sake of doing the best I can do. I have had a chance to live and to be. How great is that? Why does that have to be embellished with the idea of an afterlife?

You seem to have a rather dull and cynical outlook on life itself.  For the believers, their faith gives them hope and something to look forward to other than maggot food.   Faith serves to inspire human beings to do good things for their fellow men and in that respect it is a good thing.  Sure, there are numerous instances of corrupted faith that has resulted in tragic consequences, but overall I think that faith has a positive influence on peoples' behavior.

Your last statement contradicts your activist outlook on social issues by the way.  If you have no need of an afterlife to look forward to then great, but don't knock those who get comfort from thinking there is an afterlife.  It has been said that people fear that there is no life after death more than death itself, so the concept of an aftelife helps
to ease their passing.

[Pepsi]

A dying sun?  How is that significant to us?  What is the life expectancy of the sun?

Nihilism?  The trait of a cynical liberal?  

Pepsi there are certain things about our fate that we have no control over so set them aside and don't worry your little head over the dying sun.  Not even your "big brother" can alter the lifespan of the sun.

I don't fret about the sun dying, but I thought it was an important point of realization to make to folks who think us humans are in any way shape or form important in the universe scheme of things 

[Velleity]

You seem to have a rather dull and cynical outlook on life itself. 

ROTFLMAO.

Herr Herring, you're on record as saying that Adolph Hitler had it all right except that he got some bad PR, and you're calling me "dull and cynical"?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Mornac]

There are a 100 thousand million stars in the milky way alone, and since there are millions of other galaxyies that means there are many times more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on earth.

The universe is 13.3 to 13.9 billion years old while our species has been around for a measly 20,000 years. We wouldn't be here at all but for the fact that an asteroid hit the earth and rendered the dominant species extinct.

--And you’re telling me this because…???

In the meantime we are destroying our own environment and have probably already passed that tipping point. We could destroy ourselves in other ways in an instant.

--I don’t think we can but I don’t see how that’s relevant to the conversation.

We kill and maim each other and cause misery and despair, for what reason? So we accumulate "money", whatever that is supposed to mean?

--My goals and means of achieving them are apparently different from those of secularists.

 

Our cousins the Neanderthal survived for 200,000 years and probably died off because of us.

--You should learn to treat your family better.

What is it exactly that you think makes us so great?

--I’d tell you but you wouldn’t believe me.

We're nothing at all compared to the rest of the universe.

--We are unique in the universe.

Our time is pretty much nothing compared to the age of the universe.

--So? Our time still suits our purposes.

Our greatest accomplishment is probably rendering ourselves extinct.

--Even if we were capable of doing so, I wouldn’t consider that to be “(o)ur greatest accomplishment”, but then I seem to place a different value on life than most around here.

 

We aren't even a successful species Mornac.

--We were told that way back in the beginning. Some of us have lived life knowing it. I’m glad to see that you recognize it.