"Conservatives" Under a Microscope I

[IM2]

Which is exactly how I suggested that it actually works. Yes. We look at the past. We see that it's not a desirable thing to hurt or kill each other and we create our rules and our values.

That's not natural law. That's learning from experience.

I have yet to mention anything about natural law. So then when I say that the founders were a bunch of slave owning racists, it is based upon an analysis of how they lived, and said in a manner to make us understand that we do not need to go back there again. It is not bad history to mention this, it is factual history.  To say that we cannot base our opinions on them because we live here now and they believed that racism was acceptable is an excuse. I am not saying you are a racist, because you are not even close. I am saying there is no excuse for what happened, none.

In the 1930’s and 40’s many in Germany felt that it was right to exterminate jews because jews were a problem to the world.  In about 30 years will there be one to say that we should not judge them based upon current standards because that’s how they thought then? Would this be an acceptable statement to any Jew? Would it be considered bad history?

Originally you ask me why I am offended by such a belief. And I am offended because you reduce a real life occurrence of great horror, tragedy and terror into some vague historical construct. The beliefs of those then are carried on by tea baggers (among others in the white community) now. So then it’s not about how people thought then, it’s about a continuing belief that must be addressed and changed.

Why? Because we disagree? That's kind of silly IM. I think no less of you. We just disagree. No big deal.

I’m fine then with carrying on this discussion, just as long as you do not get offended by what is said.

I think that's unfair of you to label my honest opinion as an excuse, but do what you think you have to do.

Not really labeling your opinion, just responding with my honest opinion of your honest opinion.

I'm not sure where you pulled this from, except it's certainly not remotely close to anything I've said.

Vel, you said that one should not make 20th and 21st century moral judgment on things that happened in the 18th, 19th century. Yet jurisprudence is full of opinions that have changed laws rendered by men mostly who judged making 20th century judgments upon actions taking place in the 18th and 19th centuries and maybe even before.

There's some history in Oliver Stone's JFK too, but I wouldn't use it for anything more than the entertainment value.

There is one problem with your thinking here vel, Oliver Stone’s JFK is a man made rendering of a historical event. Oliver Stone did not predict the death of JFK and it happened exactly as he said.

Have you ever played the game "Telephone?" When stories are passed from person to person they often change. These particular stories were written down thousands of years ago. A lot has changed IM.

Yep and it’s a pretty fun game. But the difference between this and biblical information that I cited is that it was spoken, people dispute it, yet it happens exactly as the word says it will. YOU do turn to dust. Women do have painful births and bleed each month. Man does have to labor for all of his things, instead of having plenty of it already given, by the sweat of our brow, and that was also a punishment rendered by God for Adams not being the man he was supposed to be. Women have clits which are not really little dicks, but they are dick like in shape and the head is very sensitive as you probably well know.

In recent years we have had increases in weather events. Wars are rising in number, not decreasing. Earthquakes are increasing in frequency and intensity. Floods increasing in intensity, and duration. Famine in many different parts of the world. Increases in disease without out cures, or plagues hitting all over the world. Pestilence all over causing mad cow and various other diseases to animals and humans. These things have been written in your story book vel, and these things are not fictional accounts of things that have happened, they are predictions of things to come made thousands of years ago, that are happening as we post.

The fact that you don't believe in the Tooth Fairy doesn't mean the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. So what?

I feel pretty safe in my opinion that neither the Tooth Fairy nor Satan exist.

There is only one problem with this type of thinking vel, I do not believe in the tooth fairy because I stayed awake and saw my dad put the dollar under my sheet then tell me a tooth fairy did it in the morning. We have a choice in this life vel, to believe or not to believe in things we have not seen. You are a descendent of people who suffered the real last mass organized attempt by Satan to take over the world. The next guy is going to make Hitler look like Santa Claus.

You choose to not believe in the unseen as far as Satan is concerned, but to deny that evil does not exist on this earth is really, quite frankly, foolish. You deny Lucifer exists on this planet, you claim the bible is bunch of assorted stories, yet you as a Jew, do not seem to understand why people have constantly throughout history tried wiping Jews off the face of the earth.

I view it as a conversation between friends IM. Where did you get the idea that it's a fight? Please. I have enough nonsense from Nazis and various and sundry other fringe lunatics. Please don't make our discussions "a fight."

You're right. I get so much of that same nonsense; I tend to come defensive when I should not. Apologies vel.

No. I am correct. There is no natural law. We are left to assess the past and create current standards to apply to ourselves, and not to historical characters.

I've never really mentioned anything about natural law. There are rules to everything. For example a natural law is that man cannot fly of his own volition. We can get on a plane, we can get in a copter, we can hang glide with equipment, parachute, but if we tried flying without any equipment and using everything we have, we drop right down to the ground. We are not talking natural law as you see it when I say what I do about the founders. We are talking about thousands of years of law.

Regardless of what you claim about the ten commandments, they existed in written form by the time of the founders. The argument about slavery was contentious because the mere institution of slavery flew right in the face of all doctrine they understood relative to god. You seem to dismiss the claim that the so called founders claimed to be men who had strong relationships with God. Given that alone, their misuse of the commandments and laws god gave to them is something we should SERIOUSLY not dismiss. Because God does not accept flimsy excuses about what is and what was not acceptable to judge. And regardless of what you do not see or see, there is such a thing as God.

[Velleity]

I have yet to mention anything about natural law. So then when I say that the founders were a bunch of slave owning racists, it is based upon an analysis of how they lived, and said in a manner to make us understand that we do not need to go back there again. It is not bad history to mention this, it is factual history.  To say that we cannot base our opinions on them because we live here now and they believed that racism was acceptable is an excuse. I am not saying you are a racist, because you are not even close. I am saying there is no excuse for what happened, none.

No one is making any excuse. That isn't the point. Slavery was a bad thing.

In the 1930’s and 40’s many in Germany felt that it was right to exterminate jews because jews were a problem to the world.  In about 30 years will there be one to say that we should not judge them based upon current standards because that’s how they thought then? Would this be an acceptable statement to any Jew? Would it be considered bad history?

Is there a comparison to be made between Adolph Hitler and Abraham Lincoln? We were talking about Lincoln, after all. Lincoln said some bad things in a calculated and shrewd way in order to achieve something that was critically important. For that you would compare him to Hitler?

Seems a little harsh to me IM. In the 1930s and 1940s was Hitler's behavior considered criminal? I think it was, but earlier tyrants like, say, Vlad the Impaler not so much.

Originally you ask me why I am offended by such a belief. And I am offended because you reduce a real life occurrence of great horror, tragedy and terror into some vague historical construct.

No I didn't. We were talking about Abraham Lincoln.

Vel, you said that one should not make 20th and 21st century moral judgment on things that happened in the 18th, 19th century. Yet jurisprudence is full of opinions that have changed laws rendered by men mostly who judged making 20th century judgments upon actions taking place in the 18th and 19th centuries and maybe even before.

No. I am saying that it is bad history to go judging someone like Abraham Lincoln using 20th and 21st Century sensibilities. If he lived today and he said some of the things he said he would be a racist. But he doesn't live today, and you can't know how he would be if he lived today.

Of course Hitler was a 20th Century character, now wasn't he? So why couldn't you apply 20th Century sensibilities to him?

There is one problem with your thinking here vel, Oliver Stone’s JFK is a man made rendering of a historical event. Oliver Stone did not predict the death of JFK and it happened exactly as he said.

You have no proof that the Bible is anything but "a man made rendering."

Yep and it’s a pretty fun game. But the difference between this and biblical information that I cited is that it was spoken, people dispute it, yet it happens exactly as the word says it will. YOU do turn to dust. Women do have painful births and bleed each month. Man does have to labor for all of his things, instead of having plenty of it already given, by the sweat of our brow, and that was also a punishment rendered by God for Adams not being the man he was supposed to be. Women have clits which are not really little dicks, but they are dick like in shape and the head is very sensitive as you probably well know.

Now come on. The universe was created in 7 days? God made Eve from one of Adam's ribs? We can go on and on with these and, no, I don't think so. 

In recent years we have had increases in weather events. Wars are rising in number, not decreasing. Earthquakes are increasing in frequency and intensity. Floods increasing in intensity, and duration. Famine in many different parts of the world. Increases in disease without out cures, or plagues hitting all over the world. Pestilence all over causing mad cow and various other diseases to animals and humans. These things have been written in your story book vel, and these things are not fictional accounts of things that have happened, they are predictions of things to come made thousands of years ago, that are happening as we post.

You've been watching too many docudramas IM.

[IM2]

vel,

Before I comment on your post, I was wtching Olbermann and Laawrence O'Donnell stated a provsion in the health care bill. The wacko claim that you will be taxed or penalized by anyone is wrong, according to the written words in the health care bill that NO penalty will be assessed for not being able to purchase or not purchasing health care.

So  much for the Army of IRS agents coming to get you.

No one is making any excuse. That isn't the point. Slavery was a bad thing.

O.K.  But the issue far surpasses slavery alone. And LIncolns comments, if we stick to what exaclty we talked about relative to Lincolns views on the equality of man. Such equality was said to belong to all men, by written declaration. So then for Lincoln to say what he did was a slap in the face of the very declaration he was sworn to uphold and defend. By standards of his own time.

Is there a comparison to be made between Adolph Hitler and Abraham Lincoln? We were talking about Lincoln, after all. Lincoln said some bad things in a calculated and shrewd way in order to achieve something that was critically important. For that you would compare him to Hitler?

Seems a little harsh to me IM. In the 1930s and 1940s was Hitler's behavior considered criminal? I think it was, but earlier tyrants like, say, Vlad the Impaler not so much.

It might be harsh to some to compare the two men, but to compare beliefs that are wrong is not. Slavery was the black holocaust, and segregation after that continued the same type of suffering. All based upon a beleif that blacks wer enot the same as whies, and Lincoln believed  such himself.

You have no proof that the Bible is anything but "a man made rendering."

And you have no proof it was not a divinenly inspired writing from humans communicating the message god wants us to have.

We are basing any argument we have here on our perosnal beliefs. You believe the bible was nothing but a man made rendering, I believe it was the word of god communicated to us in writing. Eventually we both will find out whether we were right or not.

Now come on. The universe was created in 7 days? God made Eve from one of Adam's ribs? We can go on and on with these and, no, I don't think so.

Since niether of us were around we cannot comment on anything but what is writen and if what was written has actually come to pass. I see plenty of examples where it has come to pass, you have not, or you give such happenings other reasons for occurring.

You've been watching too many docudramas IM.

Actually I am a sports junkie so I don't watch docudramas as a general rule. And I defnielty do not give heed to docudrams presented by humans tyring to put a spin on the word. I say what I do because of what i read and how such things predicted in the bible have increased as written over the years.

[johnhp]

Before I comment on your post, I was wtching Olbermann and Laawrence O'Donnell stated a provsion in the health care bill. The wacko claim that you will be taxed or penalized by anyone is wrong, according to the written words in the health care bill that NO penalty will be assessed for not being able to purchase or not purchasing health care.

So  much for the Army of IRS agents coming to get you.

Hold on.  Are you saying conservatives are lying about the contents of the healthcare bill?  i find that so hard to believe.  Just kidding of course.  This is getting ridiculous.

[stacy adams]

Stacy, perhaps that explains to some extent your issue? I don't really buy it though. A sociopath like Bernie Madoff or Hermann (Ivan) Goering is going to somehow suffer? I don't see that happening or being any kind of realistic check on the potential bad things that people can do.

History has already proven that men like Madoff and Goering suffer in the long run, and I’m specifically thinking about the French Revolution when I claim that anarcho-capitalism is unsustainable.  I'm not suggesting that France operated under anarcho-capitalism at this time.  I'm merely pointing to the ever present threat of revolt.

As it is now, the SEC may be a joke, but people still saw Ken Lay indicted and Bernie Madoff sentenced so there’s at least some semblance of justice.  Americans remain justifiably outraged, but they’re not storming the gates with torches and pitchforks.

Compare this to anarcho-capitalism, under which fraud would either be perfectly legal or there’d be no practical way to bring the richest perpetrators to justice.  Victims would simply be told to take their money elsewhere if they didn’t like the way a firm conducted business, and the Madoffs of the world would cut their own throats by continuing to steal until the people moved against them and enacted regulation effectively ending anarcho-capitalism.  

[lucy]

I think most Americans still want the system we have in place to be able to work and stand accountable for our laws and such....The financial world and its inner workings are certainly becoming more revealed/so, if there is wrongdoing, I doubt if it is as easy to sweep the malfeasance under the carpet these days....

Good points, Stacy.

[johnhp]

As it is now, the SEC may be a joke, but people still saw Ken Lay indicted and Bernie Madoff sentenced so there’s at least some semblance of justice.  Americans remain justifiably outraged, but they’re not storming the gates with torches and pitchforks.

Well, some Americans are storming the gates with pitchforks outraged over this situation.  The problem is they have no solutions that would not bring us right round to the same problem.

[Velleity]

Well, some Americans are storming the gates with pitchforks outraged over this situation.  The problem is they have no solutions that would not bring us right round to the same problem.

Radical, drastic solutions are never a good idea when it comes to such thing. It takes time and perseverance. Otherwise you're absolutely right.

[IM2]

Most of those with pitchforks can only be mad at themselves because they supported the very things that created the misery they live in right now. It's why they have no solutions, because their ideas, their best ideas, did not work in the first place.

[Velleity]

Most of those with pitchforks can only be mad at themselves because they supported the very things that created the misery they live in right now. It's why they have no solutions, because their ideas, their best ideas, did not work in the first place.

There's no shame in trying something and failing. The real shame is in the inability to admit the failure and the real dysfunction is in the denial and the inability to adapt.

[IM2]

I agree with you vel. The shame here to me is not only in not admitting failure, but the continuing pressure to force people to keep trying the same faioed policies.

[ivanm]

Most of those with pitchforks can only be mad at themselves because they supported the very things that created the misery they live in right now. It's why they have no solutions, because their ideas, their best ideas, did not work in the first place.

As in the former USSR and in Red China and in N. Korea?  France hasn't been the same since the revolution either.

[IM2]

As in the former USSR and in Red China and in N. Korea?  France hasn't been the same since the revolution either.

No. As in American conservative economic policy that created the great recession we live in right now.

[vel]

If Badnews can kick up old stuff he likes, so can I.

Anyone have anything to add?

[IM2]

I was reading some of this thread. We were having some pretty good conversations, mostly peaceful, and no stupidity.