Who or what is the middle class?

[Pepsi]

What question of mine are you referring to?  I will admit that sometimes I lose continuity in the discussions.
Sorry, but that comes with age. 

this one:

So why would a high wage earner want to vote for expensive government social projects that will increase their tax burdens even more?   

The point I'm trying to make is some things the government can do more efficiently, so more taxes may equal less money spent on private services needed to fulfill the same need, and I'm using pre-K education as an example.    But it can be expanded to cover education as a whole.    Europeans spend more on taxes but get pre-K through college paid for.   At the end of the day they pay less for education than we do.   

[Pepsi]

My son is a civilian contractor in Iraq and is in his second or third year of it, don't remember which.  It appears that he does very little at times and he pulls down about 150 k a year, much of which is tax exempt.  As long as he stays out of country a certain number of days a year I know for a fact that 80 k of his taxable salary is not subject to federal income taxes.

If the kid was back in Dallas he couldn't even hold a job, due to his attitude towards management and owners of businesses where he has worked, with a spotty record. So it is any wonder our defense budget is what it is, given jokers like my son and the chopper specailist?

To me this is another case of government can do it more efficiently than private companies.   The graft and waste of these companies the army is outsourcing so many functions to is unbelievable.   Why should tax payers pay a guy $150k for something an enlisted guy can do for $40k, makes no sense to me.     

[lucy]

Government employees are making far more doing the same job as their private sector compadres in the same line/field. Why would the government pay 150K for a job that is worth 40K in the private sector....million-dollar jobs in non-profits, ngo's etc///

And then the grant money for top jobs in profit=making corporations such as bio-med. Why should the taxpayer pay when the company the person is working for is making a killing from the government-paid grant?

[Pepsi]

Government employees are making far more doing the same job as their private sector compadres in the same line/field. Why would the government pay 150K for a job that is worth 40K in the private sector....million-dollar jobs in non-profits, ngo's etc///

You have it backwards.. contractors are far more expensive than enlisted servicemen in the defense industry.

As makes sense.. private companies are there to make as much money as possible.   If they can bilk the tax payers for double or triple the cost that is in line with their goals as a company for existing.   Government gives the tax payers oversight.   Private outsourcing of government functions introduces all sorts of problems, including those companies greasing the wheels of the politicians who give those lucrative contracts out, and politicians who leave governement to join private companies who then leverage their government contacts to steer money to their businesses.   hello Dick Cheney?

[johnhp]

Government employees are making far more doing the same job as their private sector compadres in the same line/field. Why would the government pay 150K for a job that is worth 40K in the private sector....million-dollar jobs in non-profits, ngo's etc///

And then the grant money for top jobs in profit=making corporations such as bio-med. Why should the taxpayer pay when the company the person is working for is making a killing from the government-paid grant?

i would like to see some sort of documentation of that claim.  i am with Pepsi here i think you have that turned around.

[lucy]

It has been on news outlets here and there recently....actually, though, this has been documented since the Bush Administration. Nothing new.

You can do your own research since it is widely available information.

[Pepsi]

I have not seen such evidence myself.. but I could be wrong.

In the news today;

NY set to replace IT consultants with state workers

Computerworld -  New York State has embarked on a plan to shift a number of jobs filled by IT contractors and consultants to the state payroll as part of an effort to save millions of dollars.

As many as 500 new state IT jobs may be created under a new in-sourcing program that was recently approved by the legislature and backed by Gov. David Paterson.

This law creates "term appointments" for state IT workers, which strip away some hiring and firing rules that apply to permanent workers. The maximum tenure for "term appointments" is five years.

The state estimates that it can save approximately $25,000 annually for each contracting position that is shifted to the state payroll. The annual savings is pegged at as much as $15 million, but that estimate is contingent on whether the contracted positions can be replaced.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9169558/NY_set_to_replace_IT_consultants_with_state_workers

[Velleity]

Government employees are making far more doing the same job as their private sector compadres in the same line/field.

Definitely not true for lawyers.

I too have heard this meme a few times now. I don't think it's true but even if it is why would you put downward pressure on wages?

[lucy]

From what I have seen the pay-scale for lawyers varies dramatically depending on many factors--what sort of law specialty one has, where one is in practices, etc. I have a close friend who was making 250K a year working in government as a lawyer about 15 years ago, but I don't know if that is the norm or not....

I am sure the same would hold true for many government positions. I will look for a link, though.

[nraforlife]

.................   Europeans spend more on taxes but get pre-K through college paid for.   At the end of the day they pay less for education than we do.   

soooooo, you are OK with stiff exams to weed out students who will not be able to cut the mustard?

[makesenseplease]

Definitely not true for lawyers.

I too have heard this meme a few times now. I don't think it's true but even if it is why would you put downward pressure on wages?

Now here is one time I will agree with you.

The O. J.  Simpson trial proved that a good attorney in the private sector is worth his weight in gold.  Had I not watched the trial from beginning to end I never would have thought a lawyer could be worht that much. 

Simpson's high-priced attorneys made the government lawyers look like para-legals.

I doubt if any of them would even consider working for the government.

[ivanm]

soooooo, you are OK with stiff exams to weed out students who will not be able to cut the mustard?

I worked with a German national in 1967 while on TDY to the Frankfurt area and told me how the German educational system worked back then.  At a point in time, about the 8th grade, students were tested for aptitude and learning potential.  Some were assigned a trades curriculum and some were put on a college preparatory course.  This strikes me as a practical and cost effective way to run an education system.

We can't all be college grad types and there is still a great demand for top quality tradesman.  If a tradesman has business ability he can in time form his own business and do quite well.  There is nothing shabby about that  sort of occupation.