58% Favor Waterboarding of Plane Terrorist To Get Information

[johnhp]

You really DO have a reading comprehension problem.

There is no conflict between the two statements.

Have you tried tutoring... or perhaps a psychiatrist? You have some pretty serious problems, but you shouldn't give up hope.

So, there is no conflict between the capture of the plotters in 2002 and the claim that evidence used to foil the plot was extracted in 2003?  You are just a fucking moron.

[Observer]

Observer,

Yada! Yada! Yada! It looks like Paul Blart is out of his league again.

I am not going to argue this with you son. I am going to make true statements and you will take it. Experts have said waterboarding is ineffective. Deal with it.

Shut up, Boy.

You are out of your league here.

[Observer]

So, there is no conflict between the capture of the plotters in 2002 and the claim that evidence used to foil the plot was extracted in 2003?  You are just a fucking moron.

No, there isn't.

Go back and actually READ the article you cited. It specifies that the plot was NOT thwarted until Hambali was arrested in 2003.

Capturing one member of a cell planning to take action does not mean the cell just changes its plans and gives up.

Maybe you and IM should put your heads together and between the two of you... Never mind. It wouldn't work. You would just be posting as one big moron instead of two little ones.

[IM2]

No Paul Blart, I am not out of my league. I simply cited expert testimony. I am not going to argue with you. if you want to argue about it, find the guy who testified for congress and argue whatever you claim with him.

[Observer]

I am not going to argue with you.

Good... then just shut the Hell up.

[johnhp]

No, there isn't.

Go back and actually READ the article you cited. It specifies that the plot was NOT thwarted until Hambali was arrested in 2003.

Capturing one member of a cell planning to take action does not mean the cell just changes its plans and gives up.

Maybe you and IM should put your heads together and between the two of you... Never mind. It wouldn't work. You would just be posting as one big moron instead of two little ones.

George Bush says you are a fucking liar:

Planning began in October 2001, but it was derailed in early 2002 "when a South East Asian nation arrested a key al-Qaeda operative", Mr Bush said.

[ivanm]

No, there isn't.

Go back and actually READ the article you cited. It specifies that the plot was NOT thwarted until Hambali was arrested in 2003.

Capturing one member of a cell planning to take action does not mean the cell just changes its plans and gives up.

Maybe you and IM should put your heads together and between the two of you... Never mind. It wouldn't work. You would just be posting as one big moron instead of two little ones.

Those simplistic retards cannot see the value of holding a person as a witness or possible suspect until more data comes in. Suppose it isn't all that kosher, it beats the hell out of some airliner being blown out of the sky and loaded with innocent people.  

These jerks just don't get it. Terrorists don't advertise their next strike and they don't go around with a badge or brand to identify them as terrorists.  They count on touchee feelee Marxists like dipshit john to give them a pass.

If that dumb sob thinks that communist countries are immune to terrorist attacks then he has missed the many accounts of them hitting on the former USSR states and doing some real damage.  The real world starts outside the halls of academia but he is so enraptured with fucking over unsuspecting minds that he doesn't even know what the real world is doing outside his little utopian realm. That shrimp of a school boy needs an update to his educational credentials.  The war on terror is for keeps and is not some game where you can shout King's X when you are down. 
Those bastards don't even value the lives of fellow ragheads so why should they value ours?

And then he comes here and expects grown mature men and women to swallow his drivel?  Dream on sucker.  

[dagon]

Those simplistic retards cannot see the value of holding a person as a witness or possible suspect until more data comes in. Suppose it isn't all that kosher, it beats the hell out of some airliner being blown out of the sky and loaded with innocent people.  

These jerks just don't get it. Terrorists don't advertise their next strike and they don't go around with a badge or brand to identify them as terrorists.  They count on touchee feelee Marxists like dipshit john to give them a pass.

If that dumb sob thinks that communist countries are immune to terrorist attacks then he has missed the many accounts of them hitting on the former USSR states and doing some real damage.  The real world starts outside the halls of academia but he is so enraptured with fucking over unsuspecting minds that he doesn't even know what the real world is doing outside his little utopian realm.

And then he comes here and expects grown mature men and women to swall his drivel?  Dream on sucker.  

then why did bush/cheney/rumsfeld do the EXACT SAME THING?  simple question.

(i'm talking about the underwear bomber btw, in case you try to move the goalposts)

peace

[ivanm]

then why did bush/cheney/rumsfeld do the EXACT SAME THING?  simple question.

(i'm talking about the underwear bomber btw, in case you try to move the goalposts)

peace

Some slip thru the cracks.  Could you do a better job? We don't hear about the plots and nears misses that are being thwarted every day, just about the failures. You need to cut them some slack.

I look at the Iraqi thing this way.  We basically did that for Israel's sake as SH had a basic means to lob missiles into Israel. He did it in Gulf I. I don't think he was into Islamic extremism as he was not much on religion anyway. SH was just a barbaric expansionist despot, of the Hitler type.

[dagon]

Some slip thru the cracks.  Could you do a better job? We don't hear about the plots and nears misses that are being thwarted every day, just about the failures. You need to cut them some slack.

I look at the Iraqi thing this way.  We basically did that for Israel's sake as SH had a basic means to lob missiles into Israel. He did it in Gulf I. I don't think he was into Islamic extremism as he was not much on religion anyway. SH was just a barbaric expansionist despot, of the Hitler type.

no argument on your points but that's not what i asked.  observer and the right-media blowhards that empower him are saying that the obama admin are being pussies for not saying that this Mutallab kid should be designated an "enemy combatant" and waterboarded or whatever else they think is necessary to get info from him rather than turning him over to our transparent system of justice.  that's what observer is getting at.

my point is that the bush admin did the EXACT same thing as the obama admin is under IDENTICAL situations.  actually, they aren't even identical because the richard read "attempt" occurred within a relatively close timeline to the 911 attacks and bush had already cleared the roadblocks for extreme rendition.  everyone backed that choice back then (even observer) but now obama is a pussy because he doesn't want to torture this kid?

puhleeze!!

peace

[Velleity]

Since we don't use and haven't used either of those techniques, their relative efficiency is of no relevance.

Sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, waterboarding... these are all proven and effective interrogation tools. I wouldn't even call them torture, but you Leftists insist that doing anything other serving them tea and crumpets is inhumae.

So you're saying that the tortures used in the studies are substantively different than your preferred methods of torture because you "wouldn't even call them torture." Oh. That makes sense.

Wait. . . No, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense at all.

Isn't it a pity that you can't make that pesky reality thing conform to your narrow, extremist ideology?

[johnhp]

Fellow ragheads?  Really?

[johnhp]

Those simplistic retards cannot see the value of holding a person as a witness or possible suspect until more data comes in. Suppose it isn't all that kosher, it beats the hell out of some airliner being blown out of the sky and loaded with innocent people.  

These jerks just don't get it. Terrorists don't advertise their next strike and they don't go around with a badge or brand to identify them as terrorists.  They count on touchee feelee Marxists like dipshit john to give them a pass.

If that dumb sob thinks that communist countries are immune to terrorist attacks then he has missed the many accounts of them hitting on the former USSR states and doing some real damage.  The real world starts outside the halls of academia but he is so enraptured with fucking over unsuspecting minds that he doesn't even know what the real world is doing outside his little utopian realm. That shrimp of a school boy needs an update to his educational credentials.  The war on terror is for keeps and is not some game where you can shout King's X when you are down. 
Those bastards don't even value the lives of fellow ragheads so why should they value ours?

And then he comes here and expects grown mature men and women to swallow his drivel?  Dream on sucker.  

Ivan,

You really do not know much about me, but you like to invent all sorts of things.  Yes, i teach for a living and i am an editor.  For-fucking-give me for my literacy.  i have not always been an academic.  i worked my way through high school, college and grad school doing all kinds of jobs from construction to cook to high school teacher.  In our exchanges, i muster facts, you make things up.  You cannot even follow an argument.  Ivan, you are a stupid and ignorant human being.

With regard to communist countries, i have no idea what you are talking about.  You are just making shit up again.

Concerning terrorism, it will not end until the social conditions giving rise to the social conflict are addressed.  These social conditions embrace more than just the extremists and they are vampires latching onto people who are really suffering and whose real suffering needs to be addressed.

[Observer]

So you're saying that the tortures used in the studies are substantively different than your preferred methods of torture because you "wouldn't even call them torture." Oh. That makes sense.

Wait. . . No, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense at all.

Isn't it a pity that you can't make that pesky reality thing conform to your narrow, extremist ideology?

I said the techniques you described are not in use and have never been in use by our intelligence agencies, so a discussion of their effectiveness is irrelevant.

Was that too complicated for you?

[IM2]

Paul BLart,

Good... then just shut the Hell up.

Nah, I won't shut up, because I am right. You are theone who needs to shut the hell up, but youare so damn stupid that you don't know when you are wrong. I mean you are borderline retarded Blart. Its why you are a mall cop now.

I said I am not going to argue with you because I am going to tell you how things are. You have no argument here son. I don't give a fuck how long you claimed to be working in security. After all there is a very large difference between national security and mall security.

Maybe waterboarding a 14 year old shoplifter got information but the testimony of a real professional, not some armchair QB who claims he was involved in this kind of thing on the internet, says that what you claim is wrong.  Not my words but the words of an expert.

For example:

Gen. Petraeus: Torture yields information ‘of questionable value.’
“Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. That would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone ‘talk;’ however, what the individual says may be of questionable value.” [Gen. David Petraeus, Letter to Multi-National Force-Iraq, 5/10/07]

HMM Isn't this your hero, bitch? General Petraeus seems to hold a contradictory positon to our own so called military expert. And Petraeus is actually in charge of the current war in Iraq is he not? He is not some mall cop wannabe tough guy posting bullshit on the internet.

So like I said, I am not going to argue with you, and I am not going to shut the hell up. You will shut up on this subject before I do.

FBI cites ‘lack of evidence of [enhanced techniques’] success.’
“The differences between DHS and FBI interrogation techniques and the potential legal problems which could arise were discussed with DHS officials. However, they are adamant that their interrogation strategies are the best ones to use despite the lack of evidence of their success.” [FBI memo, 5/30/03]

HMM the FBI seems to hold the same veiw on torture techniques such as waterboarding.

Army JAG: ‘I don’t think [torture] is all that effective.’
“If you torture somebody, they’ll tell you anything. I don’t know anybody that is good at interrogation, has done it a lot, that will say that that’s an effective means of getting information. … So I don’t think it’s effective.” [Major General Thomas Romig, former Army JAG, 11/19/07]

HMM a current miltary attorney says that torture techniques such as waterboarding are not effective.

Special Ops Interrogator: ‘Enhanced’ interrogation causes detainees to ‘shut up.’
“When I was in Iraq, the few times that I saw people use harsh methods, it was always counterproductive. Because the person hunkered down, they were expecting us to do that, and they just shut up. And then I’d have to send somebody in and build back up rapport, reverse that process, and it’d take us longer to get that information.” [Matthew Alexander, leader of a Special Operations interrogation team in Iraq, 12/8/08]

HMM   a current special OPs leader says torture techniques such as waterboarding are not effective.

Military’s Joint Personnel Recovery Agency [JPRA] cautioned enhanced program produces unreliable intelligence.
“The Dec. 2001 memo to the Department of Defense General Counsel cautioned, however, that while ‘phyisical deprivations can and do work in altering the prisoners’ mental state to the point where they will say things they normally would not say,” use of physical deprivations has “several major downfalls.’ JPRA warned that physical deprivations were ‘not as effective’ a means of getting information as psychological pressures, that information gained from their use was ‘less reliable,’ and that their use ‘tends to increase resistance postures when deprivations are removed.’” [Senate Armed Services Report on Detainee Treatment and Abuse, Nov. 2008, p.38]

Do I need to keep going? Yeah I think so, because you need to be made to understand that its time for you to shut the fuck up asshole. You know nothing, and you have proven this time after time. If you worked in national security for 23 years you obviously worked at a very low level, if not that you were the janitor at the NSA building and you read information while dumping trash.

Army Intelligence Officer Col. Herrington: Enhanced techniques endanger intelligence collection.
“COL Herrington also warned that certain security procedures in place at the time could have a negative impact on intelligence collection, stating: ‘The austere nature of the facilities and the rigorous security movement procedures (shackles, two MPs with hands on the detainee, etc.) reinforces to detainees that they are in prison, and detracts from the flexibility that debriefers require to accomplish their mission…These views have nothing to do with being “soft” on the detainees. Nor do they challenge the pure security gains from such tight control. The principal at work is that optimal exploitation of a detainee cannot be done from a cell.’” [Senate Armed Services Report on Detainee Treatment and Abuse, Nov. 2008, p.44]

What ya got to say about that one Blart?

Army psychologist: Enhanced techniques ‘do not work’ in intelligence-gathering.
“It was stressed to me time and time again that psychological investigations have proven that harsh interrogations do not work. At best it will get you information that a prisoner thinks you want to hear to make the interrogation stop, but that information is strongly likely to be false.” [MAJ Paul Burney, Army’s Behavior Science Consulting Team psychologist, statement to Committee, 8/21/07. Senate Armed Services Report, p.78]

The beatings will continue till you shut your fucking mouth on this subject.

Army psychologist: Rapport techniques produce better intelligence.
“Experts in the field of interrogation indicate the most effective interrogation strategy is a rapport-building approach. Interrogation techniques that rely on physical or adverse consequences are likely to garner inaccurate information and create an increased level of resistance…There is no evidence that the level of fear or discomfort evoked by a given technique has any consistent correlation to the volume or quality of information obtained.” [Maj. Burney, BSCT Psychiatrist, Oct. 2002 memo to JTF-170. Senate Armed Services Report, p.83]

Did someone say something about people being out of their league?

FBI to Gitmo Commander: Gitmo techniques are ‘highly skeptical.’
“Many of [JTF-GTMO's] methods are considered coercive by Federal Law Enforcement and UCMJ standards. Not only this, but reports from those knowledgeable about the use of these coercive techniques are highly skeptical as to their effectiveness and reliability.” [Nov. 22, 2002 memo to MG Geoffrey Miller, who commanded JTF Gitmo. Senate Armed Services Report, p.115]

As Grady Seasons told Tom Cruise in the Color of money, "Its like a nightmare, it gets worse and worse.  So true isn't it Observer?

SERE specialist: Stress positions ‘are not effective’ for gaining intelligence.
“According to his testimony, ‘history has shown us that physical pressures are not effective for compelling an individual to give information or to do something’ and are not effective for gaining accurate, actionable intelligence.” [Terrence Russell, JPRA’s manager for research and development and a SERE specialist, testimony to Committee, 8/3/07. Senate Armed Services Report, p.209]

Another head wound for Observer.

FBI Director Robert Meuller: Enhanced techniques haven’t prevented any attacks.
“So far as he is aware, have any attacks on America been disrupted thanks to intelligence obtained through what the administration still calls ‘enhanced techniques’? ‘I’m really reluctant to answer that,’ Mueller says. He pauses, looks at an aide, and then says quietly, declining to elaborate: ‘I don’t believe that has been the case.’” [Vanity Fair, 12/16/08]

Do you understand yet son?

The Interrogations Of Zubaydah And KSM: Enhanced Techniques Produced No Actionable Intelligence

http://thinkprogress.org/why-enhanced-interrogation-failed/

FBI’s Jack Cloonan: Zubaydah and KSM gave only ‘pabulum.’
“The proponents of torture say, ‘Look at the body of information that has been obtained by these methods.’ But if K.S.M. and Abu Zubaydah did give up stuff, we would have heard the details,” says FBI agent Jack Cloonan. “What we got was pabulum.” [Vanity Fair, 12/16/08]

What did YOU say about KSM and torture? Seems like those who were there are saying different.

And who has more crediblity YOU? Or them? Certianly you know the answer is not you.

CIA Official: CIA interrogations of KSM produced ‘total f*cking bullsh*t.’
“But according to a former senior C.I.A. official, who read all the interrogation reports on K.S.M., ‘90 percent of it was total f*cking bullsh*t.’ A former Pentagon analyst adds: ‘K.S.M. produced no actionable intelligence. He was trying to tell us how stupid we were.’” [Vanity Fair, 12/16/08]

Permanent damage is sometimes the result of this kind of ass kicking.

FBI Interrogator Ali Soufan: Torturing Zubaydah was unnecessary.
“I’ve kept my mouth shut about all this for seven years,” Soufan says. But now, with the declassification of Justice memos and the public assertions by Cheney and others that “enhanced” techniques worked, Soufan feels compelled to speak out. “I was in the middle of this, and it’s not true that these [aggressive] techniques were effective,” he says. “We were able to get the information about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a couple of days. We didn’t have to do any of this [torture]. We could have done this the right way.” [Newsweek, 5/4/09]

Another person who was there seems to disagree with our mall cops assessment of how effective torture techniques such as waterboarding are.

Zubaydah revealed KSM’s Identity BEFORE being tortured.
“He [Zubaydah] was transferred from Pakistan to Thailand, where Soufan and Gaudin immediately sought to gain his trust by nursing his wounds. … During this time, Soufan and Gaudin also began the questioning; it became a ‘mental poker game.’ At first, Abu Zubaydah even denied his identity, insisting that his name was ‘Daoud.’ But Soufan had poured through the bureau’s intelligence files and stunned Abu Zubaydah when he called him ‘Hani’ – the nickname that his mother used for him. Soufan also showed him photos of a number of terror suspects who were high on the bureau’s priority list. Abu Zubaydah looked at one of them and said, ‘That’s Mukhtar.’ Now it was Soufan who was stunned. The FBI had been trying to determine the identity of a mysterious ‘Mukhtar,’ whom bin Laden kept referring to on a tape he made after 9/11. Now Soufan knew: Mukhtar was the man in the photo, terror fugitive Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and, as Abu Zubaydah blurted out, ‘the one behind 9/11.’ … Soon enough, Abu Zubaydah offered up more information – about the bizarre plans of a jihadist from Puerto Rico to set off a ‘dirty bomb’ inside the country. This information led to Padilla’s arrest in Chicago by the FBI in early May.” [Newsweek, 5/4/09]

How much more do you need chump before you know that you should just shut the fuck up?

Soufan: Enhanced techniques on Zubaydah produced ‘no actionable intelligence.’
“Nothing gained from torture of Abu Zubaydah produced information that wouldn’t have come from traditional techniques. We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives. There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics.” [Ali Soufan, New York Times op-ed, 4/23/09]

So what ya got left Blart? Are ya gonna tell me how stupid I am? Or how I am just wrong, even though you can't proove it? Or are you going to keep telling me to go away or shut up because you know that I am right and thats the only retort ya got?

Soufan: Padilla, KSM, other plots disclosed through regular interrogation, NOT torture.
“Claims that torture led to disclosure of Khalid Shaikh Mohammad is false. Defenders of these techniques have claimed that they got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a top aide to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and Mr. Padilla. This is false. The information that led to Mr. Shibh’s capture came primarily from a different terrorist operative who was interviewed using traditional methods. As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don’t add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May.” [Ali Soufan, New York Times op-ed, 4/23/09]

What? NO! This just cannot be! Right Observer? Because enhanced interrogation is the panacea. It will make our opponents tell us what we want. It will give us the advantage we need to win the so caled war on terror. Enahced interrogation is what we need to keep ourselves safe right obtuseness? Oops I mean Mall  Cop. Oops agiain my mistake Paul Blart. Damn I erred again, Villiage idiot.  Damn, I'm sorry Curly. Oh man, I messed up again, its observer, yeah that's the ticket.

Zubaydah made false confessions after enhanced interrogation.
“The tribunal president, a colonel whose name is redacted, asked him: ‘So I understand that during this treatment, you said things to make them stop and then those statements were actually untrue, is that correct?’ Abu Zubaydah replied: ‘Yes.’” [Vanity Fair, 12/16/08]

Stop IM, give the guy some mercy, I mean after all he can't help himself, he is a conservative and you know how stupid conservatives are.

Enhanced techniques led to false Iraq/AQ link claims.
“There was much more, says the analyst who worked at the Pentagon: ‘I first saw the reports soon after Abu Zubaydah’s capture. There was a lot of stuff about the nuts and bolts of al-Qaeda’s supposed relationship with the Iraqi Intelligence Service. The intelligence community was lapping this up, and so was the administration, obviously. Abu Zubaydah was saying Iraq and al-Qaeda had an operational relationship. It was everything the administration hoped it would be.’” [Vanity Fair, 12/16/08]

So dumb fuck do you see where your enhanced techniques can take us? Pay attention to this last one real good, because this war in Iraq and the decreased national security we face because of it, can be tied to the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding. This is just how ineffective such methods are. So then I rest my case, and you have really nothing to say on the matter son, because you had nothing to do with the interogations. I have cited  people who did, and their words. THEREFORE WHAT EVER THE FUCK YOU SAY ON THIS SUBJECT HAS NO FUCIKING MERIT WHATSOEVER.

So shut the hell up.