Observer, A Question Re Your Cosmology

[Velleity]

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Just curious here. I understand that you pretty much believe only what you can perceive through your 5 senses.

So do you subscribe to the Big Bang theory? If so, do you believe the universe started as an incredibly dense and hot singularity? If so, what was before that singularity and what lies beyond? Who or what created that singularity? Why do we have our 5 senses and is there anything beyond our 5 senses?

Again, just asking for your opinion--nothing snarky intended.

[Observer]

To be honest with you, I don't think it matters.

The event was so long ago, that no matter how many theories we come up with, it is all conjecture. Some are more logical than others. Some have more evidence to support them than others. However, ultimately, I doubt we will ever be able to say with 100% certainty, backed with irrefutable data, that THIS is what happened.

[Velleity]

To be honest with you, I don't think it matters.

The event was so long ago, that no matter how many theories we come up with, it is all conjecture. Some are more logical than others. Some have more evidence to support them than others. However, ultimately, I doubt we will ever be able to say with 100% certainty, backed with irrefutable data, that THIS is what happened.

We will never have 100% certainty backed with irrefutable data for anything.

Of course your opinion matters. What is it?

[Observer]

I didn't mean that my opinion doesn't matter. I meant that my opinion is that it doesn't matter how it all started.

The only thing I can say for certain is that I don't subscribe to origin by supernatural causes. When people espouse that idea (I won't call it a theory"), I am inclined to ask a similar question to the one you asked... "If the universe was created by an act of God, who created God?"

I kind of overlooked the second part of your question... about the 5 senses.

I certainly accept as a very real possibility that there are things that are beyond the range of human perception using Sight, Sound, Taste, Touch, and Smell. There is strong evidence in the animal kingdom. Some animals seem able to detect changes in the electromagnetic field, for example. Even if we just assume the 5 known senses are all there are, it is obvious that there are many things detectable by animals whose conventional senses are greatly heightened that we either cannot detect at all, or can only detect at much closer range or if the substance (or activity) is in much greater concentration.

[Pepsi]

you didn't ask me but I believe in the big bang.. further I believe the universe is just an atom in another world and that world is an atom in another world and...

[Velleity]

Are you so sure that there is a distinction between "supernatural" and not "supernatural?" I believe modern physics has blurred that line and amazingly is more aligned with Eastern thought, albeit with some modifications, than traditional Western religion.

I have tried to get Mornac to acknowledge some of this but he, being Mornac, prefers evasion to true discourse.

Of course there is no right or wrong here because no one really knows. However if the Big Bang is true, and it is an amazing story, then it actually points to some interesting propositions as to who and what we are. Again, Mornac has his preloaded answers as to who and what we are. It seems to me that if the Big Bang and evolution are correct (and the evidence of this continues to pile up) then our molecules really were created in stars, and we really are perhaps the universes' best effort to date to contemplate itself.

And that is what I am asking from you. So what is it?

If you were created to contemplate the nature of the universe you wouldn't want to defy the universe. Would you?  

Besides, must we always argue politics? If you have a better non-political subject, I can go for that too.

[Velleity]

you didn't ask me but I believe in the big bang.. further I believe the universe is just an atom in another world and that world is an atom in another world and...

I certainly didn't mean to exclude you or anyone else. 

So what are quarks, neutrinos, and other bizarre particles?

[Pepsi]

we are a spec on a piece of dust in an ocean.. it's just too much to contemplate.   

the universe is expanding rapidly, I do believe that is proven not theory.   

the human race is racing toward utopia and collapse at the same time.. our knowledge is increasing dramatically so fast, as is our destruction of the planet we depend on for survival as a species.   

good thread!

[Velleity]

we are a spec on a piece of dust in an ocean.. it's just too much to contemplate.   

the universe is expanding rapidly, I do believe that is proven not theory.   

the human race is racing toward utopia and collapse at the same time.. our knowledge is increasing dramatically so fast, as is our destruction of the planet we depend on for survival as a species.   

good thread!

Yeah, it can lead to a lot of interesting places. As you've shown it can lead to thoughts of our extinction as a species. As I've shown it can be tied to Mornac's theology.

What do you think of the idea of us being the universe's ultimate manifestation in an effort to contemplate itself? Personally I am intrigued with this notion.

[Pepsi]

I What do you think of the idea of us being the universe's ultimate manifestation in an effort to contemplate itself? Personally I am intrigued with this notion.

I don't believe in any of that "we are special" or we are here for a purpose stuff.   Like the idea that there is a god who created us in his image.. what a bunch of obviously baloney.  You tell me why god needed eyes, ears, teeth 

we are a manifestation of  the complexities and awesomeness of the universe.    there are probably more amazing life forms out there but they existed far away and long ago in the space time continuum. 

[Velleity]

we are a manifestation of  the complexities and awesomeness of the universe.    there are probably more amazing life forms out there but they existed far away and long ago in the space time continuum. 

There are probably other life forms but, as of yet, who knows?

I'm not speaking of any "specialness" per se. I am looking at the whole story of the Big Bang and evolution, and it's an amazing and fascinating story. We are very much of the universe, and our minds have evolved over millions of years into what they are today. And here we are trying to figure out how we got here, and it seems like we're doing an amazing job of that.

We may not be able to figure out how to survive here, ultimately, but we do seem to be figuring out how we got here.

You don't find that amazing in and of itself?

[IM2]

Science answers many questions, but humans did not simply sprout up after a big explosion.  We also were made from dirt, and it is written so. It is also written that from dust we came and we wil return to dust when we die. When we decompose inevitably everything  turns to dust. I don't think our skeletons do, but other than that we are dirt. Just as written.

There are simply things that are outside of current human understanding, this is something we all must accept. The most highly intelligent humans ever used only1/10th of our mental capacity. Besides the predicted events are happening just as predicted.

As it pertains to the existence of other beings, that would be God. I mean God obviously lives outside of earth. Angels also live in what is called heaven, and its apparent that such a place is another world. The reality is that there is no proof that God does not exist, yet if you look around and study carefully plenty of evidence exists that shows he does. Its all about choosing to believe or not believe.

Because really what harm is it to believe in  God, and then die and find out that maybe God does not exist?

But what harm is it to not believe then die and find out that God is truly real?

I choose to believe in the existence of God. I don't worry about who created God, and thats because of the evidence that is all around me that justifies the existence of God.

Perhaps the big bang is part of creation, it's possible. But there are questions science cannot answer and never has answered even with all kinds of clues that have shown that things did occur as written in the bible. Again it's all about whether or not each of us chooses to believe or not to believe.

I am not here to condemn those who do not share what I believe, just putting in my penny's worth.

[Velleity]

We also were made from dirt, and it is written so. It is also written that from dust we came and we wil return to dust when we die. When we decompose inevitably everything  turns to dust.

What is dirt?

You don't believe that there was a singularity?

By the way, "explosion" really isn't a good metaphor. In the beginning it was a singularity and then it expanded and has been expanding ever since.

Are you saying that you can't reconcile this with your religious beliefs? Why not?

I can't get a straight answer on this out of Mornac.

[Pepsi]

Because really what harm is it to believe in  God, and then die and find out that maybe God does not exist?

But what harm is it to not believe then die and find out that God is truly real?

Two points.. you are never going to find out if he doesn't exist 

Second, I think it's more a question of religion.   I can't believe in a god where if I don't go to a certain building on a certain day, say certain prayers and sit in front of a priest and tell him what I've done bad he's going to send me to hell.  In other words, I try to be a good person.  No Mother Teresa here, but I am generally, I hope, a good person.   If there was a god who was going to treat one person differently than another simply because of how they were raised and what religion they were trained to believe in - then I can't believe in such a being.   

[Velleity]

I can't believe in a god where if I don't go to a certain building on a certain day, say certain prayers and sit in front of a priest and tell him what I've done bad he's going to send me to hell.  In other words, I try to be a good person.  No Mother Teresa here, but I am generally, I hope, a good person.   If there was a god who was going to treat one person differently than another simply because of how they were raised and what religion they were trained to believe in - then I can't believe in such a being.   

It is kind of a silly notion. Isn't it?